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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2011 17:39:11 GMT -5
I wonder to, some like it, some are scared of it, IMO.
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Post by bballou on Apr 28, 2011 18:52:24 GMT -5
AJ ---you bring up a intresting ---point----"Scared"----How come a fox will run 100 yards to a lure ---and bail right into the set---and the next day ---the fox wont show much --if --any intrest ---may-be approach to 20 yards then leave.Then the next night --come to 20 yards and run away. Are they scared---cautious---whats going on between there ears. ??There are many ways you can look at it ----I guess it boils down to Why do some come right in and others do what ever. ??Does the smell attract some and scare the others off? ?I am sure many of us have seen this in the snow many times.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2011 20:14:16 GMT -5
I dunno Bill. All I know is that having raised fox for 2 years now, I seen them grow from pups to adults.... some shy, some bold, some interested, some not. While I have no where near 1/10th or 1/100th the K-9's as many of the trappers on here, I personally think you have to focus on what a fox needs to survive, and understand why he survives.
At Von' this summer, Mr. Zagger brought up a HUGE point about coyotes....... he flat out said don't try and trap them at a dead pile, focus on were they are approacing from as when they get near the dead pile, there to nervous or high strung to work your set.
Well I have never had any luck at dead pile, historically I always set close.......... this year I took Zagger's advice....... 3 fox and 2 coyotes in 2 nights at one dead pile.
My point with all this is we as humans, assume closer to the bait is better, it's not, I am convinced Zagger knows what he is talking about (Go Figure) I think, lures can have the same effect on fox and coyotes as a dead pile............. of course you have to factor local competition, etc, etc, how hungry or horny the critter is at that exact moment, etc, etc,......... lol, the more I think about it, the more questions arise. lol.
I can tell you this, I like gland lure in the winter, but early season, just bait and urine for me.......more because I am confident it works, then any other reason.
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Post by bballou on Apr 28, 2011 21:10:35 GMT -5
AJ---Ill be damed----its hard to belive ---for me----I was taugh the very same thing over 60 years ago-----(of course the pile had another name)I have never set directly at a pile ---usually setting 4 to 8 traps with in 100 to 300 yards. I kind-a like the fruit early--but my partner uses very strong gland lure---and I dont think there is a nickle's worth of differance in our numbers. I compleatly agree with you about understanding and knowing the animal you are trying to take.---When I was a boy ---on the farm---we had foxes off and on for several years---had one that you could call -----The lessons that animal tough me are unbelivable--it ( took my Dad a while to teach me what the fox already knew ) but once I started watching instead of bitching things came together.-----I think the answer is simple---but as trappers we almost have to make it harder than it rely is. Well any -way its a lot of FUN---and a learning experience.
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Post by jdpaint on Apr 28, 2011 21:28:59 GMT -5
Hey AJ , can you compare a baited dirthole to a dead pile that some will be uneasy at the set?Do they circle and urinate out of fear or to let em know who is around?Did the Zags happen to mention on how to help with confidence at the set?Is communication important to what a fox or coyote needs for survival?Thanks for the info on what you like for fall and winter . This past December there was a stick angled out over the ice from the bank on a small pond. Extreme k-9 highway to that stick. Reds ,grey and coyotes either used it ,peed on it , rubbed on it or cruised by it for a couple weeks. Seems one coyote would mill around 4 or 5 feet away and then leave did that a few times. i was guessing he was a fill in or young male?Come January the amount of tracks cut way down but the tracks that came thru were more in the the thick stuff ,cat tails, brush on the bank, I guess back on the hunt.I didnt set it because i usually scare the heck out of em floundering around the snow and ice.It was a good learning tool and now know where there is a good stick to set next winter with a good redfox gland. This thread has turned out as good as when Zag got started on offsets and lamination a few years ago.
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Post by jdpaint on Apr 28, 2011 21:45:23 GMT -5
Mr, Ballou did your pet wild fox ever bury food or things? If they did do they urinate on the hole after digging? Did there holes look like a dirt hole?The only digging i find and not very often look like mice tunnels. You think the dirt hole mimics a rodent or woodchuck hole or a food cache? Too many questions ?
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Post by bballou on Apr 29, 2011 5:42:29 GMT -5
JD----the fox slept on the end of my bed some nights----I could handle the fox only when my Dad was there---He said it was a wild animal and you could not trust them----When the fox would eat its full it would usually burry what was left over---except if it was eating out of a dish---then the fox was like a dog ---dident pay any attention ----until it was hungry again.No the hole in NO way resembled any dirt hole I ever saw---actually the cashes of food were hard to find---they could rely hide them---no dirt was visable at all---never saw one pee on a stash of food----Like many others I think the dirt hole is a courosity to the animal.
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Post by flatiron on Apr 29, 2011 6:06:09 GMT -5
Learned plenty watching a couple of so- called pet fox , I had reds and grays both . The grays were little theives , like Blue says they could really hide stuff. The gray would steal most anything shiny including car keys , silver ware and such . He had a habit where he would jump from the floor onto my shoulders so he could see the surrounding areas better . Watched him climb more than one tree also . I reckon curiosity kills more fox than anything , I would hide in the brushes or tall grass and wave a small hunk of white cloth on a stick so ever gently and be attacked by both . Because I kept more reds over the years the little gray fascinated me to no end , he could catch and eat the damndest things ,. Frogs , snakes , come in w/ bird eggs , even butterflies . I also learned Reds and Grays loved -------------- grasshoppers to no end . Both species had favorite play toys too , one being ---------------------------- GOLF BALLS ! hmmmmm?
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Post by jsevering on Apr 29, 2011 6:32:22 GMT -5
have a set we use for rock quarries.. about the most natural smelling attractor that can be brought in, that i know of... have some that will jump right in and others that will... still shy... think at times its the volume used thats the detractant... but on others... well...
kinda was of the thought that even though we can say this is real foxy or what ever... this or that... its still the volatiles that are created in the breakdown or decomposition of the glands or what have you that matter.. could be off base, but find it amazing that musk can be synthetic or say imitated to a certain point even... kinda think natural is natural... anything else is well... un natural, with a natural base material...
bill told me a story about goldenrod that really made me think some on things just a hair different... good story, but its his and his to tell if he wants.. had me laughing and going for a while... but think it kinda pertains to some of whats being discussed and how... we as humans may percieve things..... jim
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 6:58:04 GMT -5
Hey AJ , can you compare a baited dirt hole to a dead pile that some will be uneasy at the set?Do they circle and urinate out of fear or to let em know who is around?Did the Zags happen to mention on how to help with confidence at the set?Is communication important to what a fox or coyote needs for survival?Thanks for the info on what you like for fall and winter . This past December there was a stick angled out over the ice from the bank on a small pond. Extreme k-9 highway to that stick. Reds ,grey and coyotes either used it ,peed on it , rubbed on it or cruised by it for a couple weeks. Seems one coyote would mill around 4 or 5 feet away and then leave did that a few times. i was guessing he was a fill in or young male?Come January the amount of tracks cut way down but the tracks that came thru were more in the the thick stuff ,cat tails, brush on the bank, I guess back on the hunt.I didn't set it because i usually scare the heck out of em floundering around the snow and ice.It was a good learning tool and now know where there is a good stick to set next winter with a good redfox gland. This thread has turned out as good as when Zag got started on offsets and lamination a few years ago. JD, I guess my point with all this is there is no right or wrong answer to alot of things in Trapping. We all like like to think we have the "secret" set, secret gland lure, or it's got to be made this way to be better, etc, etc, etc. That bacteria and a slow aged process is the ONLY way to make a great gland lure. I don't really know why fox and coyotes are difficult to catch close to a dead pile, are they scared someone is going to jump out and attack them? Is the dead pile pretty unnatural? Were they drawn there by the massive stink of the dead pile and now they are out of there normal territory? I guess we could all go back and forth about what's right and what's not. At the end of the day I always come back to........... K-9's have to eat every day, they got to, it's not a choice. Now the million dollar question is, how much are they willing to risk there live to eat ? Are they going to approach an odd hole? I big dead pile in someone else's territory? Are maybe there not hungry and are focused on making sure no one else if eating in there territory? I guess it all depends on the situation. And I have noticed that fox will significantly eat more when it gets cold. Probably just out of simple biology. But you would be surprised how much a fox or coyote needs to survive. It's more then a mouse or two a day. Your on the right track JD, study the animal, but keep and open mind and know you can always learn more, and always be willing to think. It's what keeps trapping and these forums fun. I'm certainly not saying I am right about anything, but I'm not excepting that anybody else has the right or absolute answer either.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 7:06:33 GMT -5
I agree with ya AJ, I really dont there is anything natural about it but it works...Why, I dont know. If canids really can pick apart lures like some say they can I wonder what the fox or coyote is thinking when they smell 200 rotted/aged glands at a scent post.......comunal party spot? ? Mike, That's a good point, and alot of truth to the communal party spot. An old trapper once told me he's not attacted to the beach, he's attacted to the overgrown back side of the beach were the bury all the dead hookers ;D
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Zagman
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Post by Zagman on Apr 29, 2011 7:06:49 GMT -5
As to whether rotted down gland lures or "natural" or not....
I shared a story on another forum several years ago that many found compelling, interesting, and argumentative.
In a nutshell....my dogs are lure shy, not trap shy. Once you catch them a few times, you dont generally catch them anymore....usually by accident as they are running around after a trapped coyote and get caught in the other trap or something. Rarely do they "work" a set and get caught......they simply steer clear of that smell and visual of the set........
So, I had these burnt stumps in my back property, behind the barn.
Every day, several times a day, when I'd take Rusty and Boone back there, they'd bee-line for the stumps and mark them. They simply would not miss an opportunity to lift their legs on them.
I thought I'd use them in the winter at the quarry.....the charred black wood with all this pee on it would be a cute winter set, albeit not a numerous one, since there were only two or three charred pieces.
Well, I was mixing glands and urine in my barn with a paint stirrer, and not wanted to waste even a drop of the good stuff, I walked out back and scraped the slimey lure residue off of the stirrer and onto the charred stumps. Figured it couldn't hurt......
So, later that day, I take the dogs out and they are running full speed to the stumps....a true p***ing contest! The dogs love to beat the other dog to the target.....regardless of what it is.
In fact, if one dog sees the other with his leg up, the other runs right over and forces his way into the target.....
I digress......
So, the dogs are running to the stumps, a target they hit several times a day......and as they get close, they stop short!
They start acting like they are in trouble, tails tucked, body language clearly showing they smell something on those stumps that they dont like.....
They would NOT mark those posts any more........
That gland lure CLEARLY smelled different to them, and remembering they are not trap shy BUT lure shy, they steered clear. The stumps smelled of "lure"......no longer of their urine only.
Now, this is not meant to say gland lures dont work or that fox or coyotes would act the same way.......
I think sometimes lure makers and method writers suggest that gland lure and/or urine "naturalizes" a set, making it seem like another fox or coyote was there, and perhaps, suggesting that the next customer along just boils right on in.....I am sure some do! And, I am pretty sure, many don't..........
The point goes back to what Mike said above.....I bet what ever smell we are laying down really is very different from a naturally occurring "scent post" really smells like to a coyote or fox.
It HAS to, right? I guess it would be silly to think five year old, melted down glands from 100's of fox or coyotes would smell exactly like urine coming out of a handful of fox and/or coyotes......
Just additional information to this good thread.......probably just confuses things all the more!
Zagman
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 7:34:54 GMT -5
Mr. Mark,
How do your dogs react to a stump you hit with fox or coyote urine? Just wondering.
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Post by mikespring on Apr 29, 2011 8:29:47 GMT -5
I trap very few dairy farms with dead piles....the few I do trap i set right at the dead pile and clean up the fox...coyotes its usually 1 or 2 and figure I`ve smartened up the rest of the coyote family and then they do start to avoid it...... I`ll give it a try this season setting away from the dead pile and see what happens....I`ll still set right on for fox...I just cant bring myself not too. As to some canines being or becoming lure shy...........its a fact, why I dont know...could be a bad experience with another trapper or some other unknown
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Zagman
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Post by Zagman on Apr 29, 2011 8:37:05 GMT -5
My dead pile trap location comments are and were regarding coyote trapping........
MZ
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Post by mikespring on Apr 29, 2011 8:45:37 GMT -5
I know....was referring to Ajs observations on dead piles....He mentioned fox and coyotes away from the dead pile.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 8:48:38 GMT -5
I trap very few dairy farms with dead piles....the few I do trap i set right at the dead pile and clean up the fox...coyotes its usually 1 or 2 and figure I`ve smartened up the rest of the coyote family and then they do start to avoid it...... I`ll give it a try this season setting away from the dead pile and see what happens....I`ll still set right on for fox...I just cant bring myself not too. As to some canines being or becoming lure shy...........its a fact, why I dont know...could be a bad experience with another trapper or some other unknown If you call cleaning up on a dead pile 1 or 2, then I guess you can say you cleaned up.
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Post by mikespring on Apr 29, 2011 8:55:03 GMT -5
Coyotes...not really when there is still 2 or3 still runnin around....I want them all. I know its not reality but I do.
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Post by flatiron on Apr 29, 2011 8:56:07 GMT -5
Along the lines that MZ wrote about avoidance at the stumps . When I set three to four sets at a location one of my favorites is a small charred stump , stick or clump of grass w/ NOTHING on it . The Sleeper so to say , as much as 50% of my coyote catch comes from this set . HMMM, its hard not to give that spot a shot of something BUT it always seems to pay off not to.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 9:07:34 GMT -5
That's a good point Von, I need to learn more about that.
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Post by flatiron on Apr 29, 2011 9:09:34 GMT -5
AJ, can't put it all down here ! I have to save something for my demo's ;D
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 9:17:58 GMT -5
I know....was referring to Ajs observations on dead piles....He mentioned fox and coyotes away from the dead pile. So Mike, you don't have sucess setting the approaches to dead piles for fox? How many fox do you catch right at the carcuss or dead pile. How far are you setting from the carcuss? Also, I have found the more trapping associations I belong to, the more my catches have increased. Want to argue that to? lol
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 9:18:32 GMT -5
AJ, can't put it all down here ! I have to save something for my demo's ;D I want front row for that one buddy.
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Post by mikespring on Apr 29, 2011 9:36:06 GMT -5
AJ.....whos arguing? How many fox at the dead pile....all of them, if there is one left its not worth my time staying. The dead piles I set typically are from the out building straight back to the dead pile...dead end, no intersection, no edges just a 2 track to the dead pile... the fox and coyotes come from all directions so I set right at the dead pile, ground zero. Again Aj...whos arguing???....not even disagreeing with anyone.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 9:46:25 GMT -5
Interesting Mike, Sorry to rattle your chain, you've killed way more fox then me. I've just never, ever had any luck with setting right at a carcuss.
Don't you have problems with birds? Do you use blind sets? Dirt holes? Gland Lure?
I'd just like to learn why? Why do I have sucess when I move back and not right at the carcuss?
Just as a disclaimer: I am aware there are laws that pertain to setting a carcuss.
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