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Post by Denny Emery on Apr 3, 2011 13:32:10 GMT -5
Are they all pretty much the same?
What constitutes a good one?
Just glands ground up and that's it?
Thanks! Denny
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Post by Itrapny on Apr 3, 2011 13:37:06 GMT -5
All RF Gland lures are not created equal.....In my opinion they should be thick and smell like a red fox and I've seen some that aren't either. To get a quality lure you have to start with quality ingrediants and glands that have been properly taken care of. I'm not a real lure maker but the gray fox gland lure I made last year smelled like a gray fox and when used on my line....caught gray fox ;D
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Post by Denny Emery on Apr 3, 2011 13:43:55 GMT -5
There are aged and fresh?
Are there times when one is better than the other? If so, what are the times?
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Post by Itrapny on Apr 3, 2011 13:54:03 GMT -5
I'm sure that some other's will chime in later, but I like aged glands...at least 2-3 years to mellow them
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Post by mikespring on Apr 3, 2011 15:04:31 GMT -5
I have a couple gallons going on 5 years now....Bob Wendt style..I would not sell em, takes too long to get them to the right stage but when they are done its an outstanding lure.
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Post by Denny Emery on Apr 3, 2011 17:24:52 GMT -5
So if I am checking out any gland lure and it is runny, is it mostly urine based with just a little gland in it?
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Post by Itrapny on Apr 3, 2011 17:46:31 GMT -5
There is urine in most if not all gland lures and if the ratio is off, the lure could be runny but it should still have glands in it. If it's all liquid, then I would say most if not al the lure is urine and not a true gland lure in my opinion.
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Post by bobsamuelson on Apr 3, 2011 19:33:57 GMT -5
Denny, the supplier I buy fox glands from does not "add" urine. However, when he buys glands, he asks that there be some bladders with urine included. What his ratio is, I don't know. When grinding, all the glands are run through the grinder more than once to get the consistency he wants. They are then placed in 5 gallon buckets, but only half full, to age, for a minimum of 2 years.* I have gotten glands from him that were a little more "runny" than others, but the quality is not affected. He calls them "glands and secretions". A little runny may not mean urine, but juices that form during the aging process. These juices only allow all the ingredients to mix thoroughly to give an even blend. (If the glands or a lure are runnier than you like, you can add flour or bone meal to thicken without hurting the product.) *I know this as I helped grind about 20 gallons when visiting several years ago! Then it's remove clothes & shower as the smell, while not very rank, permeates everything!
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Post by Denny Emery on Apr 3, 2011 19:41:41 GMT -5
I am just educating myself, thanks
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Post by bobsamuelson on Apr 3, 2011 19:44:10 GMT -5
Denny, good question. If you don't ask, you won't get an answer!
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Post by bballou on Apr 3, 2011 20:32:02 GMT -5
Very well put Bob-----I have built Fox Gland lures for years---every one is different --- and they all want the product build differently----so I like to start with jest pure glands and go from there----most do ask for aged glands----and Id guess its 50/50 to thick --&--thin. Except for my partner---he wants fresh glands ---full strength---- no cutting at all.-----Oh yes dont grind glands and get called to a meeting and expect people not to look at you sort-a funny.---A shower is mandatory.
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Post by papabear on Apr 3, 2011 21:13:47 GMT -5
Mr, Samuelson and Mr. Ballou, Are you gentlemen preserving your glands before aging or just letting them basicaly rot down. if your not preseving before aging what measure, if any, do you take to prevent the glands from souring? Regards Bob
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Post by ecgreen on Apr 4, 2011 2:39:12 GMT -5
Cool thread. Keep er up
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Post by mole on Apr 4, 2011 3:38:00 GMT -5
This is interesting. What glands are used? Thank You.
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Post by brushwolf on Apr 4, 2011 5:43:11 GMT -5
What is used to preserve the glands? Salt?
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Post by papabear on Apr 4, 2011 8:10:37 GMT -5
Dear Ed, I collect the anal glands, the griany part of the ear butts, a few foot pads and a couple of bladders and urine contained in them. I dont use any intestine or feces. I add what I collect to a quart or two that I buy. I only work with about a half gallon at a time...... Mr. John I grind fresh and preserve with a solution of sodium benzoate/warm water and an equal amount of glycerine. If I was working with a large volume of glands perhaps I would preserve with methyl paraben. Regards papabear
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Post by Denny Emery on Apr 4, 2011 15:19:01 GMT -5
Can glands be fresh but 2 yrs old?
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Post by bballou on Apr 4, 2011 15:20:41 GMT -5
papabear----you sure like to open up a discusion that most wont understand ----.Myself I use all kinds of glands---anal---foot ----gauls------ bladders and urines---depending what I am makeing and for what animal-----In reality the ageing process never stops even when sodium benzoate or other presertives are added---the mixture will continue to work---and many times change color---and many other changes----- good and bad-----you dont want your mixture tightly closed because it may blow---because of gasing. The primary element is time ---and there is no rule ---as to how to use it because it is effected by so many other things ----includeing climate.---This lure and gland thing can probably best be explained by saying its ----LIKE MAKEING FINE WINE----except we dont have the dents in the bottles---to capture particals. I know some are intrested ----- if you want more all you have to do is ask-----We are almost done spring trapping---and I love to talk lure building.
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Post by brushwolf on Apr 4, 2011 16:57:04 GMT -5
yep lets here more. very interesting topic. Bob i have used sodium benzonate to preserve baits but have no idea what methyl paraben even is. why is aging glands better thann fresh? i ask because i have cut the anals out of fox and used them at flat sets and they work well. if 2 yrs. is good is 5 yrs better ?
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Post by bobsamuelson on Apr 4, 2011 20:12:33 GMT -5
This in indeed, a very interesting topic!
There are several different parts of the animal that can be used in lure making. Most lures are made up of glandular material. These could be the anal glands, the hock glands, (those are the little pea sized glands located on the back of the knee) bladders, (sometimes with urine), the ear butts, gall bladders, liver, kidneys, shoulder glands, (similar to the hock glands), brains, etc. It all depends on the lure maker and what type of lure is intended. When using green glands, you will have an ever changing odor or response from your target animal. This is because the green glands will continue to break down, to some extent, as the lure mixture ages. That is why most lure makers use aged glands, as you get a constant odor from the glands. Thus, you get a more consistant product. As far as your question, brushwolf, how long to age, it depends on what the gland mixture is composed of and what is the desired response when mixed in formulation. The glands will continue to break down until the decomposition process is finished, which may take 1 year or longer. It is my understanding that at some point, the aging process stops. It can also be stopped by adding a fixative to your formulation. This should be done when your formulation has reached the desired aroma or response you desire. Methyl paraben is basically a fungicide! It inhibits the growth of mold on aging glands or other lure making materials. It can be used as a preservative, much like sodium benzoate, but it may take longer to "quiet" the formulation.
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Post by brushwolf on Apr 4, 2011 20:41:35 GMT -5
Great info thanks for sharing it.
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Post by mole on Apr 5, 2011 3:07:02 GMT -5
Hello Again. What would some of the Seceret Ingredients be?
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Post by bballou on Apr 5, 2011 5:17:22 GMT -5
Now you are rely asking a lot Ed-----But here goes---jest between you and me---LOL---urine---ambrette musk----rue oil----valerian----phenyl acetic acid crystals---muskrat glands ---beaver castor---sac oil----jest to name a few----everyone who builds a lure has there own "secret ingredients"its what works best for them.---and sets there lure apart from others. This list is by no means complete---there are many --many more ingredients that are used in making a good gland lure for fox and coyotes.---and in combination with each other---the amount of each ingredient used is usualy left up to the builder----and more secrets are congered up. The---- glands ---WILL CONTINUE---- to break down until a fixative is added---BUT many---- includeing myself continue to belive ---Gland Particals and many other ingredients--will always break down with time--even with a fixative added----but a little slower---getting you ----- and others another secret. As a side note ---any one going to a winery this summer --ask them about ---ingredients lasting---and being put together and there effect.I belive building a good wine and good lure are alot alike --- many wines get better with age---because of internal change---Over time ---I belive many lures react the same . OK Ed you got a little out of ME----hope it helps.
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Post by flatiron on Apr 5, 2011 5:45:45 GMT -5
I use only anal glands and a small amount of foot glands . Muscaro musk , asafoetida ( the one I can never pronounce ) ;D , and a very small amount of tonquin musk ( REPEAT --- VERY SMALL AMOUNT ) , bladders and bladder pee . The best red sauce ever was some that sat around for over 20 years waiting on me to get back trapping . ;D Fresh glands work BUT IMO the aged stuff always seemed to work better . Mixing and making a lure is often like a friend of mines wine making , it always varies a little every year BUT always seems to do the job . I've got a bunch of glands aging that need to be ground soon . you guys that have the red sauce use it ------------------its gonna be scarce this year . I know Denny , Coop and AJ are holding some , hoping yer using it !
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Post by bballou on Apr 5, 2011 13:10:42 GMT -5
Von--love your analogy ("Mixing and making a lure is often like a friend of mines wine makeing, it always varies a little every year BUT always seems to do the job.") ---very TRUE words---definatly some batches work better than others----different year different batch. Thank You.
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