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Post by jsevering on Feb 19, 2017 10:11:33 GMT -5
just wondering....... inquiring minds would like to know how this ongoing, never ending... extended.. restoration plan, from the area they actually took stock from and then closed down for a nursery... will ever see there former established season opened again.... not for nothing but as a reputed common shareholder... if that's even what we are considered... anymore... isn't it time yet?
if it hasn't worked yet... why not... everything you read claims its a great success... soooooo... whats going on that you still need us closed down.... gay, happy otters perverting the master plan... if there is such a thing happening... is that going too be the next great study... if so how long?
will we still be around to see the conclusion of the fruits of this lifelong study or will we lose ours... kinda seems like a fair question all things considered... time wise... jim
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Feb 19, 2017 14:31:09 GMT -5
Some bureaucrats needed to put their kids (or grandkids) from birth through College? Just saying, it's been 22 years. The program could've had a degree by now. Oh wait, is that its student loan bill we've been stuck with paying off??? Yes, sarcasm, but if ANY of us took this long on a "project," well... we wouldn't be allowed to. Any one of us would've been fired long ago, especially if all along we were claiming, without substantiation, to have such tremendous results. Only bureaucrats are not held to any degree of accountability.
Good points all, Jim. Thanks.
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Post by jsevering on Feb 19, 2017 17:19:57 GMT -5
then when the next great restoration plan comes along... they wonder why your not on board with them or it.... must be something wrong with you, you weren't brought up right, your great grandmother must of beat you or something... how could a person, even as cold as you be against something like this... don't you want others to have a chance to see one.. you know your not the only shareholders... why do you even bother, bringing this up... its old news... no one cares except for you.... suck it up buttercup...
yeah we know... shares in what we had and don't now... apparently went belly up years ago... funny before the restoration plan and wmu season losses here we use to wonder when they were going to expand them (wmu's) seeing the otters were expanding on there own back then and the sign was evident... figured it would be great for new opportunities and areas... guess it eventually was for pennsylvania if you can call what they have a season.... seems like we've been paying the bill here for a long time, sure wish someone with a little reach, pull or common sense would be kind enough to flip on the d@mn switch ... jim
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 692
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Post by paintedpaw on Feb 21, 2017 11:19:38 GMT -5
I don't live in the closed otter areas, but I sure share your frustration. After all these years there have been numerous changes within DEC; retirements and promotions. The season should never been closed in the first place. All of the studies appear to have gone nowhere. Biologists that were working on the study have been promoted to other responsibilities and the guy that closed the season has retired and is long gone. A number of the otters used in that restoration came from the now closed areas. Is it any wonder that trappers are frustrated? So now you have otters swimming all over the southern tier, yet one of the areas from whence they came is still closed to trapping. I remember the trigger studies that evolved from the Hales Creek studies. Does anyone remember when some of the captured otters were being fed contaminated great lakes salmon? Somehow I'm not very impressed. Not a DEC function, but does anyone remember the brainstorm of that ESU professor and the Canadian Lynx re-introduction? Yup, they dropped them in the high peaks and they took off for parts unknown because those biologists and grad students had not figured out that they need to eat and there was no food source up there! Thank God that brain fart was a failure or New York Trappers would be having the same problems as in Maine over Lynx . I may not be the sharpest tack in the drawer, but my memory is just fine and it is actions like these, and a lot of un fulfilled promises that have caused my thinking to be what it is. Watch out guys, hang onto your skivvies, I hear tell that DEC is getting ready to put it to us AGAIN by way of another survey.
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Post by tony1967 on Feb 21, 2017 13:14:11 GMT -5
Actually, we don't have many in the southern tier, at least my area. I have never seen one or any sign.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 692
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Post by paintedpaw on Feb 21, 2017 13:18:51 GMT -5
Sorry, but I do not agree. There are a lot of otters now in the southern tier.
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Post by hardwoodcharlie on Feb 21, 2017 15:43:13 GMT -5
Actually, we don't have many in the southern tier, at least my area. I have never seen one or any sign. I have trapped in Chenango,cortland and parts of Madison county's and have and had to deal with avoiding incidental otter in just about every beaver flow I set up at one time or another. They can become annoying at times, I'm all for them bringing there study or what ever you call it to an end... Charlie
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Post by jsevering on Feb 24, 2017 8:33:48 GMT -5
back even before they closed us down... we would catch incidental otters in coyote sets in a couple of the wmu's in delaware county that didn't have a season, we would have to release... dirt holes on farm pond dams with nothing more than a decent spring run trickling out... if your coyote lure had tonquin and some beaver castor in it ...you had a fair chance of tangling up with one sooner or later, one reason we use to think the wmu's would of been expanded back then... but they went in a totally different direction.... some times i sit back here and think... poor young brunner, as much as that boy loves to trap.... looking at all those six lane mink trails in the snow... guess they have to be mink trails.. (no otter here according to some) never afforded the chance to harvest any... bet there is quite the few young fellows that would love that opportunity.... yup... cant wait for the next great plan for all us shareholders... jim
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Post by walleyed on Feb 26, 2017 19:34:09 GMT -5
If You don't Already Have the Gosh Darn Things In Your Trapping Area already, Trust Me, You don't want Them.
They are a Vertible Muskrat Vaccuum, and kill and eat every other type of fish & wildlife they Can Get Their
Paws On. You should see the Peeled Painted Turtle Shells on The Ice Up Here after the Dang Things have gone
thru.
Otter are a Pain In The Arse, and very destructive to populations of other Fur-bearing creatures on Your
Trapline.
w
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Post by jsevering on Feb 27, 2017 7:02:19 GMT -5
the old timers here... use to call them river wolves... guess the nickname although the glove fit, hasn't been politically correct for awhile... think it was something like 279 otters relocated overall in the program...wonder how much offspring they and their offspring produced over 22 years ... not to mention the overflow otters from the nurseries they created in the mohawk and catskill regions (wmu's they shut down) after the fact to let them breed out... i bet if someone done the math the approximate total of offspring produced from just the 279 relocated otters and all their offspring would be mind blowing to say the least... here in the wmu's they shut down it is now just about seven times longer, time wise... that we been shut down... than they promised... ten times if you went by the original promise or time frame given... to me that's mind blowing to say the least... jim
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Feb 27, 2017 9:25:31 GMT -5
Much like taxes, once implemented they never go away.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 692
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Post by paintedpaw on Feb 27, 2017 11:30:01 GMT -5
I can confirm what Jim said. I attended and graduated college at Delhi in Delaware County way back in the fifties and trapped while I was there.I vividly remember having to release a live otter that thought he was King Kong. Frequently saw otter sign (toilets) on the dams of farm ponds, on the banks of the Delaware River,and along the shore of the Pepacton. I just can not understand the thinking of DEC.It is shameful that after 22 years DEC still has not concluded their otter studies and reopened that season. Will they ever reopen that season, or are the rumors of secret agreements never to open the season true? I sure am sick of surveys, track boards, hair collections,peeking over bridges for tracks, skull submissions, and trapper's log books. Over the years I would hate to think of all the mink and otter carcasses, along with beaver meat for bait that I've given DEC for their "studies".How many meetings have I attended from everything from deer to coyotes to otters which produced nothing other than that DEC conducted their public information meetings? And this is how trappers get rewarded for that? They hand out beaver and deer kill permits like they were candy without ever checking the sites, because they are "under manned or too old pickup trucks".Give me a break, that sure is "management at it's finest". I heard just today that DEC is monitoring the spring migration of frogs and salamanders in the Hudson Valley. Yup! we better have an environmental impact study for that! And they wonder why I have the attitude that I have!
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Post by jsevering on Feb 27, 2017 16:43:31 GMT -5
your good... you pretty much nailed the general area i was referring too, al... guess we all can always hope..that one of these days they will man up and finally do the right thing.... it should of been done a long time ago,...its beyond the point of frustration any more and frustration gets you no where in a hurry that's what the last 22 years taught me anyhow... they have to realize what they did and are doing... don't they?...jim
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Post by jsevering on Mar 6, 2017 15:50:21 GMT -5
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Post by bill1960 on Mar 7, 2017 14:32:50 GMT -5
Jsevering were in the regulations does it say that you can't use a 330 and that you can't use a drowning wire yes the trigger has to be tied together and offset to the side also if your using a foothold try going to long chains on them they have worked great for me.have you contacted dec to share the info on the otter in your area.Here what the regulations say about unintentionally captured. Incidental and Accidental Captures of Trapped Animals There are no provisions in the Environmental Conservation Law allowing trappers to possess animals that are taken outside of the open trapping season.
You must attempt to release any animals that are accidentally captured when the season is closed or if the area is not open for trapping that species.
If the animal is injured to the extent you believe it will not survive, humanely dispatch it. If you are not sure, contact a DEC Regional Wildlife Office for assistance.
When you find an unintentionally captured animal dead in the trap, or when you must dispatch an unintentionally captured animal due to a serious injury, you may remove it and lay it in the vicinity of the trap. There are no legal provisions for you to keep it, and you may not possess it even to take it back to your vehicle without permission from DEC.
DEC seeks information on all accidentally taken bobcat, otter, fisher, marten and other species of unusual nature. If the animals are dead, a DEC wildlife biologist may want to collect the carcass. The location and carcass data are the most valuable information DEC can obtain regarding the status of these species.
Contact a Regional Wildlife Office or an Environmental Conservation Officer as soon as possible to report the catch. You will receive instructions on what to do and information to provide.
I do believe that the dec is starting an otter survey this year sometime as they have asked a couple of landowners I trap on for permission to do one on their property when it starts i do not know. Bill
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Post by jsevering on Mar 7, 2017 14:56:36 GMT -5
the basic extras for a walk in... for a quick simple check in the former open now closed zones... a couple of these jammed in your pocket prior to becoming a nursery... because back then you used the proper conibear traps, beaver foothold traps and drowning rigs to take care of business.... for the last couple decades its this.... looks light enough right... but if you don't have the smiley face dude... well your,... you know what... on the way out... dec... should remember...what god gives he can take away just as fast, in most cases a hell of a lot faster, if that happens they gonna ask us to give... almost another quarter of a century's worth of time to them, ... just would simply like them to follow through on their part... its way past due... jim
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Post by jsevering on Mar 7, 2017 15:55:18 GMT -5
Bill... please dont take any offense to my reply as i appreciate the help your response offers... im quite aware of the rules and regulations .... im also quite aware what happens to every head of a critter to include muskrats that is above water level with a dec damage permit, im quite aware of the trigger regulations on the 330's, im quite capable of using drowning rigs and we own some pretty decent beaver gear to include proper decent traps
my problem is i have nothing against the poor dumb otters, i'll release them unharmed if i can, but when you go into areas and the otter sign is so evident to the extent it was and generally is ... im not going to kill them, just to kill them... leave them to lay and rot... that's the dec's thing along with issuing damage permits from the office... you know... little lead pills for turtle food...
back when we got stuck with the trigger reg... it was over two or three otters... how many otters rotted away over the years with the dec's blessing by not following through with their part of the plan in the closed zones and in our case zones they closed for expansion nurseries ...
how many kids or young adults could of legally harvested otters that were laid by the side of traps or just became floaters... dare to make a guess...
think dec really cares... if they did this program would of been concluded and one for the books years ago...
I truly appreciate your reply...maybe by the grace of god they will complete your study or the study you make reference to... me i have twenty plus years of broken promises from the time this deal came out of the gate, lost track of promised studies awhile ago...
i had my day in the sun before they closed us down, so did ed... we can access open areas and we do from time to time... but the populations here have been beyond historical highs for over twenty years or more and there is a much longer and larger story behind it... there are kids here and quite the few young adults now that were never afforded the chance to harvest the bounty situate in their own back yards... that was always in their own back yards....
just wish dec would keep there long lost but not forgotten promise to us here.... jim
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Post by Brunner on Mar 7, 2017 16:33:56 GMT -5
I share Jims frustrations, just don't voice them as well as he does. I'm one of the ones who was never afforded the opportunity to trap our local otters as I was a young teenager when our open zone was closed down over 20 years ago.
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Zagman
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,186
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Post by Zagman on Mar 7, 2017 17:47:40 GMT -5
Brunner has been dragged out of the attic?? Wow! Haven't seen THAT name in a long time!!! Good job Severing!
MZ
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Post by jsevering on Mar 7, 2017 19:16:08 GMT -5
out of the attic...lol... that poor boy is half domesticated now mark.... heard tell his wife has him house trained and such according to ed.... jim
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Post by whartonrattrapper on Mar 8, 2017 7:15:02 GMT -5
Here's a thought. Maybe the DEC could go walk some of the rivers and Beaver refuges in the state land. The Otter sign is unmistakable. Shouldn't even have to walk to far from ANY bridge on ALL the rivers and tributaries here, Otsego, Chenango, and Delaware Counties north of Sidney in the Susquehanna river watershed.
No need to wonder why the Muskrat population is waning, the sign left behind says it all. Between them and a bird of prey in every tree along the rivers and sloughs here the rats don't stand a chance!
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Post by jsevering on Mar 9, 2017 8:01:23 GMT -5
you make an excellent point,,,, while their out there, they should make note of the lack of rabbit sign that also use to be abundant along the willow flats on some of these rivers and flows ... cotton tails and white rabbits.... not to mention the lack of muskrats as you pointed out... every thing we have an abundance of here is a predator... mink, otter, fisher, coyotes, fox, cats, weasels....
wish we had rats again, never did in abundance compared to other areas ... wish it also was worth while to buy your small game license again around here... i really don't know what they are trying to accomplish anymore especially here, for quite the while now....jim
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Post by Brunner on Mar 9, 2017 19:02:10 GMT -5
neither do they......
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ameliam88
Hi Guys, I am looking to buy good quality Fisher Fur - MSG me !!!
Posts: 11
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Post by ameliam88 on Mar 10, 2017 14:06:15 GMT -5
you make an excellent point,,,, while their out there, they should make note of the lack of rabbit sign that also use to be abundant along the willow flats on some of these rivers and flows ... cotton tails and white rabbits.... not to mention the lack of muskrats as you pointed out... every thing we have an abundance of here is a predator... mink, otter, fisher, coyotes, fox, cats, weasels.... wish we had rats again, never did in abundance compared to other areas ... wish it also was worth while to buy your small game license again around here... i really don't know what they are trying to accomplish anymore especially here, for quite the while now....jim Is there any other way to buy Good quality Fisher fur - NOT ON THE AUCTIONS Thanks
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 692
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Post by paintedpaw on Mar 10, 2017 20:50:40 GMT -5
Every time I get into these discussions I get more upset, How many more years of DEC B.S. before they open that season? How many more studies and biologists getting advanced college degrees because of their "otter studies"? What about all of the turnovers (promotions, retirements) within the past 22 years? Does anyone presently in DEC even remember the promises that have never been fulfilled? I full well remember the planning meetimgs in Oneida county for the otter restoration project and the "trigger studies" at the Hales Creek field station. Were not some of those restoration otters captured in those now closed Catskill areas? I have always been disgusted with DEC for refusing to make an accidental catch provision. Just throw it on the bank and waste the resource. That certainly is not "wise use of a natural resource" What a waste and what mentality. Obviously DEC could care less about trappers and fur primeness. Just look at those jackass October seasons. They seem to be taken with "Trophies" rather than quality fur management. Perhaps someone should put a bug in Cuomo's ear, what with all his hot air about outdoor recreational opportunities, or the lack of.
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