Post by bobsamuelson on Mar 11, 2017 9:10:38 GMT -5
Politics, politics, politics! Until the politics and feel good "look at what we have done " attitudes go away, nothing will change! Need to put more emphasis on the "scientific " part of scientific wildlife management rather than the feel good emotional part!
I used to have Super Human Abilities...but my Therapist took them away!
well i know of one biologist that remembers, wont mention his name in fairness to him.. but you know him al,,, he was on their part of the jti team back then... still may be... talked with him on the phone about the first closure in one of the original wmu's closed down he was in charge of back then, that got closed down quietly , why they did it.. that wmu is now absorbed by a larger wmu, that was quietly closed down the next year... by a different biologist now retired... and the original promise back then was two years...
but yes this program outlived the careers of just about everyone involved with its original purpose... here it has outlived the actual lives of quite the few trappers... one a good friend roger ricco who trapped live otters here for the program... who in return and thanks for his support, ended up with closed seasons for his efforts.. kinda ironic isn't it... jim
Last Edit: Mar 12, 2017 9:14:18 GMT -5 by jsevering
Every time I get into these discussions I get more upset, How many more years of DEC B.S. before they open that season? How many more studies and biologists getting advanced college degrees because of their "otter studies"? What about all of the turnovers (promotions, retirements) within the past 22 years? Does anyone presently in DEC even remember the promises that have never been fulfilled? I full well remember the planning meetimgs in Oneida county for the otter restoration project and the "trigger studies" at the Hales Creek field station. Were not some of those restoration otters captured in those now closed Catskill areas? I have always been disgusted with DEC for refusing to make an accidental catch provision. Just throw it on the bank and waste the resource. That certainly is not "wise use of a natural resource" What a waste and what mentality. Obviously DEC could care less about trappers and fur primeness. Just look at those jackass October seasons. They seem to be taken with "Trophies" rather than quality fur management. Perhaps someone should put a bug in Cuomo's ear, what with all his hot air about outdoor recreational opportunities, or the lack of.
This is why I try to stay out of these conversations. I get extremely aggravated, no, that's an understatement.
well hope you had enough time to take a few deep breaths, buttercup... this post is for you buddy... as most don't understand geographically ... but... look at the seven day highly regulated 1 limit season across the river in the neighboring state... purely a trophy season...but a lot of info there to be had... even for the dec if they bothered to even look.... but, thinking they might want you to supply the paper work... dispatch it, lay it down on the bank next to the trash bin on the road side of the office and call them ....
thinking on it... its kinda strange... think that area of the poconos was the last hold over for pa when they had there loss / major decline in otter population... way back when, more than likely also mostly due to water quality also, but hey if it makes them feel better... us as trappers, they need a job also...... kinda just like us and the Adirondacks were on our side of the river, water quality wise ... more than likely why they dec reinstated our season back in 1936 after a nine year state moratorium of no otter trapping ...
we traditionally had one along with the adirondacks up until the otter restoration program and a need for a nursery for expansion ... which wasn't in the original plan... they keep on saying some otters from our area were used in the reintroduction... but mostly from the adirondacks... guess it makes them feel better for what they did... you know the qualifier..
well hell i only know of two trappers that trapped this area roger ricco and his partner ... wonder what the percentage was trapper wise... you know our region compared to the adirondaks ... think it was an equal in number of trappers that participated in the program... bet it wasn't... also think the adirondaks is a whole hell of a lot bigger than the small portion of the catskills, that supplied those otters and then was shut down...
if you feel ambitious and are a sucker for punishment... the seven day one otter limit season totals for 2016 was published, been waiting for 2017 but its no where to be found yet... the two highest takes were in the counties more or less outside your back door... believe they can only set a limited amount of traps also.... actually not a bad take for never having a season before or at least one any one living, could of participated in generally speaking... lol... the three highest takes were all along counties that bordered nys ... not bad for there first year...
you set any beaver traps this year... know you use to enjoy trapping and putting up a few... jim
All this fresh snow, easy as pie to drive down the road and see all that smoking fresh giant mink sign on the river banks, at 55mph. Seems like a fine time to be working on a study. Ray Charles could point out the sign.
Post by paintedpaw on Mar 17, 2017 21:33:54 GMT -5
If it were not so maddening I would laugh at the lack of knowledge about otters and their habits on the part of some of these biologists. Some of them would not recognize an otter toilet or otter slide if it hit them in the eye. Oh we can peek over the bridges and look for tracks, or maybe we can get them onto a track board, or maybe we can get them to go under a barbed wire fence so we can collect hairs for DNA samples for our NEVER ENDING study.I wonder if these guys recognize the detrimental affects that the "water wolves" have on other animals, fish, and even turtles. Oh I know, they can't change the seasons until they have a completed species management plan. Let's see, how many years has that been in the works??? How these guys can look trappers in the eye without hanging their heads in shame is beyond me. There is ALWAYS an excuse of one kind or another.
whats maddening to me is how dependent they are or seem to be on cornell and grad students performing the studies.... most of them now more than likely have very little hands on experience until they are in the field actually performing the studies... other than book learning and quoting other studies in their papers... they aren't aloud to think out of the box if it isnt quoted somewhere and im not saying this to be a smart alec... but a good chance most of them were in diapers or in the process of getting potty trained when they took our seasons away... its their views and opinions were subject too, to a degree or at least it would appear....as far as the studies go... theirs always an opinion and that opinion is usually for more studies... and to hell with common sense.. even if its staring you in the face.... they will manage to do the same thing with fishers... manage the fishers like they did the otters to manage more studies...jim
Last Edit: Mar 18, 2017 14:36:42 GMT -5 by jsevering
whats maddening to me is how dependent they are or seem to be on cornell and grad students performing the studies.... most of them now more than likely have very little hands on experience until they are in the field actually performing the studies... other than book learning and quoting other studies in their papers... they aren't aloud to think out of the box if it isnt quoted somewhere and im not saying this to be a smart alec... but a good chance most of them were in diapers or in the process of getting potty trained when they took our seasons away... its their views and opinions were subject too, to a degree or at least it would appear....as far as the studies go... theirs always an opinion and that opinion is usually for more studies... and to hell with common sense.. even if its staring you in the face.... they will manage to do the same thing with fishers... manage the fishers like they did the otters to manage more studies...jim
maybe the biologist should stand up do the right thing... you know take a deep breath and spread a little lime... but cornell will more than likely have to do a major impact study on the potential hazards of the run off or leaching effect of the lime into the static water level up there first... opinion... more studies are needed.... jim
see where one of the guys that had an otter permit for pa posted the 2017 otter harvest report on trapperman...
the three largest county takes were in counties that bordered nys again... nice short summary, pretty much three quarters of the total harvest were in counties that boarders nys over three quarters if you count monroe county... some other info in the short summary.... if dec doesn't believe us... you know the ones who have to drive past all the sign at 55 mph for the last twenty years or so, maybe the summary from the pa game commission will help some....
come on dec...wake up... do right by us, give us our seasons back... jim
Post by whartonrattrapper on Mar 29, 2017 12:45:17 GMT -5
Jim, I saw that too.
The first thing that came to my mind was how the heck did they compute the harvest data in a little over a month? In NY it takes the DEC a year or so....at least. .
The second was the water sheds where the Otter were harvested originate in Central NY. Otsego and Delaware counties....
some of the sullivan county watersheds also... tributaries and two rivers flow or lead into the delaware in fairly short order from that portion of the wmu's that were shut down... jim
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