paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 26, 2015 16:18:06 GMT -5
I would like to throw out what I consider to be a reasonable fisher plan:
!. All coon and canine seasons to remain the same date.
2. All Pine Marten and Fisher seasons to end December 31.
3. Fisher season to open in the new central and western WMU's on December 23.
4. Catch quotas pertain only to Pine Marten and no other species , All areas of concern shall have catch determined by length of season.
5. Any season length reductions shall be at the beginning of the season, not the end.
6. Trappers must have their fisher sealed within ten days of close of season. A lower jawbone or canine tooth, along with a small hair sample must be provided at time of sealing. A provision must be made exempting the tooth or jaw bone requirement in the event of taxidermy of the animal.
&. All body gripping traps placed on land, in cages, containers, in culverts, on trees or poles are prohibited until there is an open fisher/marten season. The exception being that body gripping traps may be set within the confines and below the high water mark of a watercourse. All regulation pertaining to water animals, beaver. otter, muskrats with body gripping traps applies.
8. All fisher/pine marten captured out of season must be released immediately alive. Any fisher captured out of season must be submitted to an ECO.Any fisher/marten dead in a trap outside of an open fisher/marten season must be surrendured to an ECO.
9. All Catskill, south east New York, and northern zone zones to open on November15.
10. No log book needed to trap fisher. No special permit needed to trap fisher. Any info needed to be on the paper possesion tag. Anyone that buys a license should have a right to trap any species without the threat of losing that right if log book isn't filled out and returned. Exception being Pine Marten log books.
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Reasoning:
1. By running a later fisher/marten season several factors come into play. Arrival of snow and zero temperatures is unpredictable, but has a definate limiting affect upon trapper participation, providing some degree of protection to these species.
2. By running a season in the new areas during Chritmas vacation youths will have an opportunity to trap for these animals and would be similar as to the season in neighboring Pennsylvania.
3. When the Catskills season was opened years ago it was opened on the same date and for same length as the Adirondack season. Either there is a fisher population size in the new areas able to sustain an open trapping season, or there is not. Control of the take can be accomplished by the length of the season, with no need for any quotas.
4.Pelts taken from animals captured November 15 or later are of far superior quality providing trappers a much more valuable product. While it is the responsibility of DEC to maintain the welfare and sustainability of the species, it is also the responsibility of DEC to provide trapping opportunity to the public when the pelts are at their best. Setting of seasons when furs are not at their best is unethical, immoral, and unworthy of the word conservation within the department name.
5. Perceived reduced fisher populations in the Adirondacks could be far more conservatively addressed by a shorter season in the begiining of the season, until such time that DEC has done their homework and scientifically knows exactly what is going on. It makes no sense to leave open the first two weeks when that is when DEC claims the bulk of the catch is made. By running a shortened season at the end of the season weather conditions would most likely have a limiting affect upon trapper participation.
6.It makes no sense to have a quota of one on one of a road and no limit on the other side. That part of the regulation will make dishonest men out of honest ones. How many traps does one set when there is a quota of one?
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Post by jdpaint on Apr 26, 2015 16:42:08 GMT -5
Kudos on #1. On #7 would we lose 110 dry land blind mink sets in grassy areas , or edges in the area east of the RT 7 / RT 8 line to Herkimer ? It has an opening date of 11/10. Thanks for sharing , there is hope.
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Post by jsevering on Apr 27, 2015 5:56:25 GMT -5
the way #7 is written cages, containers, poles ect... im guessing it refers to baited and lured body grippers outside of a fisher and marten season ... thinking the intent is to keep legal blind sets without bait and lure still to be allowed outside of the confines of the high water mark, the way we use them now... but not sure myself... jim
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Post by silverfox on Apr 27, 2015 6:00:00 GMT -5
Kudos on #1. On #7 would we lose 110 dry land blind mink sets in grassy areas , or edges in the area east of the RT 7 / RT 8 line to Herkimer ? It has an opening date of 11/10. Thanks for sharing , there is hope. agreed, great points Painted Paw, however "ALL BODY GRIPS ON LAND" needs to be refined IMO, my mink harvest is almost 100% blind sets on land (jan-feb) when mink are running the iced up waterways, have NEVER had a non target or incidental catch and use small body grips exclusively
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Post by k9goodtimes on Apr 27, 2015 8:43:52 GMT -5
Yep, January February blind sets account for 90% of my mink catches also. Unbaited should be allowed imo.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 27, 2015 8:53:33 GMT -5
Trappers should not get all excited about these suggestions. It is merely my suggestions for a sensible plan, and NOT the plan of DEC. Regarding my suggestions regarding the use of conibears it is not meant in any way to attack coon trappers.I would point out that they have an added advantage of the foot encapsilating traps. Also, I personally have no problem with use of the small conibears for mink, however the DEC biologist that works on pine marten has gone overboard in his zeal to "protect" the marten that he has placed restrictions on the small conibears after Dec.10, even in areas where there are no marten. My plan is designed to allow continued seasons with no change to coon or canine seasons while at the same time holding back on the fisher season to mid November. Most incidental fisher captured during the early period would be alive and would be required to be released unharmed.This would provide for quality pelts being taken rather than the JUNK, TROPHY pelts that DEC is proposing and could be regulated as to catch size by the length of the season. Also, it would provide an opportunity for youths, in the new areas to trap for Fisher during the Christmas vacation. My plan is meant to harm no one, but to provide a reasonable compromise. The more I think about it I believe that baited cages could be employed and any accidental fisher could be easily released. DEC is adament against an accidental catch provision, but it is stongly needed. I am most distressed that the DEC fisher plan has driven such a wedge between us.I would wish for a return to cordial relations, with respoect for each other, and respect for each other's ideas. That is how it used to be. Again, this is only my ideas, not those of DEC, so trapper's need not get all jazzed about them. Thank you.
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Apr 27, 2015 11:24:59 GMT -5
I have a ? re: the use of conis in baited sets for OTF/M (Other than fisher/marten). How prevalent are they since the box/enclosure regs went in place? I know they are used with the enclosures etc.. But since those regs went thru, I have pretty much stopped using conis on land except for poles sets for fisher (Which I suck at- I always get them in the set on the ground LOL). I know I am speaking only for myself-
Good thread. I get that it is just thoughts on the subject and if it comes down to it- We know the DEC will do whatever it wants to do anyway...
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 27, 2015 13:48:36 GMT -5
I use quite a few boxes with bait on the ground for fisher, also baited cubbies that I have built over the years. I believe that leaving the cubbies and boxes from year to year in the woods is a violation of one of DEC's outrageous regulations, but the boxes are just too heavy for me to lug back and forth. I do elevate my boxes after the season to slow down the natural decay of the wood. I prefer to use the running poles where I think there is any chance of catching a dog, or my own, although the boxes are just about dog proof.Also I find that the boxes often will take the fisher that is reluctant to climb the pole. So am I a big time violator? Should DEC unlease the hounds to catch me? I'm pretty confident they can't find my boxes or cubbies
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Post by papabear on Apr 27, 2015 15:04:58 GMT -5
Dear Mr. paintedpaw, A suggestion.......body grips (when using bait) elevated after deer season / Dec 10,......for our hound running friends. Regards
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Apr 27, 2015 15:06:09 GMT -5
You could be I always left my cages up and the traps (sprung) right there, cabled off to a tree or pole... They may require "selected trappers" to wear a GPS to help in their "studies" and to see what type of locations trappers pick and have success in... It's all about "the studies" you know......
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Post by proratman on Apr 27, 2015 20:27:50 GMT -5
Reasoning #2, Pa fisher season is actually December 20 -25. Not Christmas week. Most normal people are very busy December 20-25.
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Post by silverfox on Apr 28, 2015 5:23:54 GMT -5
Reasoning #2, Pa fisher season is actually December 20 -25. Not Christmas week. Most normal people are very busy December 20-25. "normal people" every week of trapping season IS CHRISTMAS!!!!!!
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 28, 2015 8:02:58 GMT -5
I'm ony suggesting the Christmas week because the kids are off from school. Anyone that nows me will attest that I am a bit whacky and far from normal. I drive down the road laughing at those guyson the golf links with thos orange balls while I'm headed to a swamp to wade aroud.\ So, who's normal?
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Post by proratman on Apr 28, 2015 8:03:00 GMT -5
You do have a point there.
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Post by k9goodtimes on Apr 28, 2015 8:38:43 GMT -5
Reasoning #2, Pa fisher season is actually December 20 -25. Not Christmas week. Most normal people are very busy December 20-25. "normal people" every week of trapping season IS CHRISTMAS!!!!!! I miss daily Christmas morning.
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Post by chappy on Apr 28, 2015 18:55:03 GMT -5
Al, I have the highest regards for you and all the years of hard work put in by all members of the JTI and NYSTA. Lord knows many of you have been at it before I was even born. But now, when backed into a corner, I just wanna fight......give them nothing!!!! The government wants our guns, our money, our children's minds, they don't like our independence, our freedom....... something trappers have always had.....our pride.
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Post by Lonny Mattison on Apr 29, 2015 5:31:20 GMT -5
Dear Mr. paintedpaw, A suggestion.......body grips (when using bait) elevated after deer season / Dec 10,......for our hound running friends. Regards Agree.
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Post by papabear on Apr 29, 2015 8:29:31 GMT -5
"Anyone that nows me will attest that I am a bit whacky and far from normal. I drive down the road laughing at those guyson the golf links with thos orange balls while I'm headed to a swamp to wade aroud.\ So, who's normal?" Mr. Paintedpaw
Dear Friend, We've been corrupted by the vicious habits of civilized life. And for reasons of the heart, we must return to the woods at frequent intervals to redeem ourselves from the vanities of civilization. Regards
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 29, 2015 13:03:48 GMT -5
Chappy, I'm not looking for praises. There are many of us involed in this together. I remember your own contributions and I have the greatest respect for you. At my age I know that I don't have too many years left to trap, but I want to preserve the wildlife and trapping into the future for my grandsons and others into the future. I'll give you a clue to my age; I have a certificate of participation from the conservation education camp at DeBruce in 1952. Back then it was called the Conservation Dept., none of this "Environmental" horse balls. Men were men, and there wasn't half the political bullsh---. I am particularly upset with this fisher plan and the manner in which it was done. The former relationship we enjoyed with DEC is gone. What happened to the "Joint" in Joint Trapping Initiative (JTI)? Men I thought were friends answer my reasonable questions with wise cracks. I recall that I had asked a question regarding the closed otter season in the Mohawk Valley and Catskills. My answer was a wise crack, far from the professionalism one would expect. In view of the closure of close to twenty years one would think that these "experts" would be hiding their heads in shame! Now we have the fisher plan, what a disgrace! THese guys are so cocky, think they know everything, and refused to accept even one suggestion from the trappers. I can remember teaching the marten/fisher biologist how to catch fisher, and he did, but I remember that he had no clue in running the Fisher BMP study. Many of these guys have the book learning educations, but lack one ounce of common sense! I must say that there are some good men working for DEC, but they are overshadowed by all of this political B.S. When people that would not know an otter toilet if it hit them in the head.don't have a clue the difference between a fisher and a black bear are writing regulations for trapping I'm upset! If indeed there is an "emergency" on fisher populations in the Adirondacks I must ask where have you been? That did not happen over night. Must be someone was too busy putting radio collars on star nosed moles or doing a college degree peeking under bridges for "sign". Everything these days is a "management plan". The latest is a Moose plan involving DEC, ESF, and Cornell. What an alliance that is; remember the lynx "reintroduction"? So do I have reason to be d@mn mad and have no faith? Mr.PapaBear, I try to spend some time in the woods as many days as I can. to help maintain my sanity! At least I know that God is in charge there!
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Zagman
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,186
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Post by Zagman on Apr 29, 2015 13:34:33 GMT -5
A Nov 15th opener would kill any decent chance at fox and coyote trapping for many of us....
What percentage of fur harvested, dollars spent, dollars earned come from fisher trapping in NY? I'd say a very small percentage........
To give up three weeks of fox, coyote, and raccoon trapping up front to appease a fisher plan with so few participants relatively speaking, and dollars of impact, seems odd to me.
If you don't want to trap canines/fur in Oct or early Nov....DON'T. But don't take that away from those of us that do for an animal that probably averages less than ONE fisher caught per licensed trapper in those traditional fisher areas.
Now, have DEER GUN SEASON start in Mid-December, and I will be all in!
MZ
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Post by papabear on Apr 29, 2015 16:50:32 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Zagman, I don't believe Mr. paintedpaws intent is to change the current canine and coon seasons............ "!. All coon and canine seasons to remain the same date."
Deer season for bow, tomahawk, and primitive booby - traps in Sept...........Deer season for gun, grenade, and long range missiles in Oct........don't care how many you kill as long as you eat them.
Regards
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Zagman
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,186
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Post by Zagman on Apr 29, 2015 17:05:22 GMT -5
ok, sorry....misread it....I reckon.
MZ
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 29, 2015 18:29:46 GMT -5
Sadly I have come tothe conclusion that these websites are not such a good thing. It is far too easy for a misunderstanding or to hide behind a computer screen rather thn to talk to someone face to face. Please don't get me wrong, I have not changed my opposition to the fisher plan or my resentment to the lack of acceptance of anything the trappers have suggested. Inspite of that all of my rotten remarks towards DEC and the Fur Management biologistsoin particular is totally uncalled for. I think their plan is dead wrong and I will continue to oppose it, but my remarks took tngs too far and were uncalled for.For that I do apologze.
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Apr 29, 2015 18:55:10 GMT -5
Just get rid of coyote/fox season all together... Start in August
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Post by papabear on Apr 29, 2015 21:58:20 GMT -5
"Inspite of that all of my rotten remarks towards DEC and the Fur Management biologistsoin particular is totally uncalled for. I think their plan is dead wrong and I will continue to oppose it, but my remarks took tngs too far and were uncalled for.For that I do apologze." paintedpaw
Dear Mr. Paintedpaw. No need to apologize!!!!! Those at DEC behind the proposed "Fisher Plan" failed miserably by submitting such an incomplete, sloppy, hap-hazard, report polluted with outdated and non-relevant information. Their total disregard of incorporating JTI's comments and advise, along with the exclusion of current factual scientific data defies all logic and common sense. At best this ill conceived "Fisher Plan" should serve as an embarrassment to anyone truly concerned and committed to the conservation and use of the fisher resource. I too, believe their "Plan" is dead wrong and will continue to adamantly oppose it. I, however, will not apologize for my comments as I truly believe that the DEC personnel involved put very little thought and effort to produce this "Fisher Plan", and are relying on the assumption that because they are schooled experts, that their assertion of their "Fisher Management Plan" will automatically prevail. Therefore you, I, and others who truly believe otherwise must continue to put forth our best efforts to inform those who will listen and understand that in this matter, DEC, does not warrant our support as it does nothing constructive for fisher populations and wildlife management in general.
Regards
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