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Post by jsevering on Apr 30, 2015 6:03:02 GMT -5
their the ones that should be apologizing... they haven't kept their word yet, but hey trust us... i specifically remember sitting in the meetings when kieth suggested nysta would replace the otters that were taken by incidental catches ... nope, not good enough...then the push for the 330 trigger deal... that was suppose to never been adopted, just studied down in north carolina... kieth and nysta got push back on that... then by chance kieth getting a ticket for setting a push up.. they saying it was a house or den... whatever... the mysterious leak that he payed for the ticket instead of fighting it or civil compromise and all that pursued after, with kieth and nysta.... all that man did was try and keep them to their word and he got black balled and persecuted for it... he was a dam good president and honestly cared.... then the years of side stepping until today... fisher plan with bag limits and their not so exact math...or exact science .. god knows what they have in store with the marten plan yet to be released.. if this is just the fisher plan....
their only management plan is to control/ limit mortality... by limiting actual trapper opportunity and harvest..... same as it is and always been from the end of the otter reintroduction.. need not look past the otters or what happened to kieth way back when, in trying to keep them to their word, or doing the right thing... no apologies from me.... just distrust and calling the shots as i see them... if a cake has vanilla frosting for everyone to see and they say chocolate... well?.. jim
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did they at least give some incite to the marten plan and what is going to be needed or wanted above and beyond the fisher plan... seems kinda peculiar if you ask me.. not being the trusting sort anymore and that's on them... been so long... i forget what was the allowable incidental catch rate that was agreed upon, before roadkill became an issue and the want and reputed need for the 330 trigger regulation .... if they cant tell time.... two, three, five or even ten years... why is anything they are proposing now going to be any different and why the total change in how the evaluate fisher cycles did they even address what happened from 2010 that changed the policy of evaluating the fisher cycle seems it didn't become an issue until sometime after 2013... well at least with their and new turkey plan... expanding fishers can hit some more roosting hens at the expense of someone else... must be its all in the science... jim
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Post by jdpaint on Apr 30, 2015 10:09:02 GMT -5
Good post Jim , do you see this as an attack on the JTI and NYSTA ? How does one sign up new members if trappers do not have a say or representation anymore or the JTI or NYSTA is even recognized? No disrespect at all meant .Are there any southern zone trappers on the JTI?Id hate to see the k-9 trappers against fisher trappers but it might be another twisted way of theirs for division.Chappy is right ,need to be aggresive and it includes more than marten,fisher and otter. Who can we put pressure on that will pressure the DEC?Will the JTI and NYSTA change there focus or mission on different ways of gaining ground back? I was told DEC regrets and missed the boat on not adding MORE restrictions and more may come out before the registry but expect more in the next few years. We are in deep poo. Please check your PMs Jim.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 30, 2015 10:31:16 GMT -5
There is a misunderstanding about what I proposed regarding canine trappers vs. fisher trappers. First, this was only my ideas on a fisher plan. It will most likely never come to pass. My suggestion was to leave the canine and coon seasons as they are today, starting October 25, but prohibiting conibears on the ground or on trees or poles until Fisher season opened in mid November. My intent was NOT to hurt any trappers. Coon trappers would still have the options of footholds, baited cages, or foot encapsillating traps. I realize that southern zone trappers only have a 3 week window before deer season. The north country is different, but I would point out that our trapping for canines and fisher all open on or about the opening day of our deer season. We have to work around that. Anyway this is all just speculation, not likely to be adopted. To answer the question why join NYSTA, a number of reason, the best being our full time lobbyist in Albany representing trapper interests with the legislature. Also to answer your question, three of the JTI committee are southern zone residents.
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Post by jsevering on Apr 30, 2015 21:24:22 GMT -5
do you see this as an attack on the JTI and NYSTA ............................................................
no, i see it as a total disregard and disconnect by dec for us as actual stakeholders... as individuals and as part of the association that represents us as such, as a whole... jim
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Post by chappy on May 10, 2015 17:38:15 GMT -5
do you see this as an attack on the JTI and NYSTA ............................................................ no, i see it as a total disregard and disconnect by dec for us as actual stakeholders... as individuals and as part of the association that represents us as such, as a whole... jim And as our right to life,!liberty and the pursuit of happiness!! To not allow us to pursue our trade....yes TRADE!!......disregards this basic right.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on May 11, 2015 15:01:14 GMT -5
The fisher management plan demonstrates a complete disregard and disrespect for the trappers of NEW YORK STATE. I believe that hunting, fishing, and trapping are our God given rights. There has been total disregard for rural families and for our trapping heritage. There has been total disrespect for the long standing JTI committee and the word joint no longer applies. I'm "old school" and find it very difficult to accept the lack of morals and ethics in today's world and government.That trickles all the way down from the muslim in the white house and his gang of stooges to state government, from our corrupt governor and corrupt legislature. For years we advocated to let wildlife management be handled by DEC biologists, not the politicians.Along came the otter restoration and otter trapping shutdown and from that point on everything changed. It appears to me that DEC is dictated to by the Governor and the environmental groups. The forest preserve dictates in the Constitution are over a century old and no longer pertain, yet no one dares change them. Consequently there is no forest or wildlife management of any consequence in the Catskill and Adirondack counties. Proper forest management does not exist; only forever wild dictates of the environmentalists.As a result we now have an overmature forest with falling down and diseased trees, and lack of habitat in these areas to properly sustain fish and wildlife.Yet the state continues to acquire more and more lands and classify them wilderness, in effect locking them up from all but a few. Mean time they can not properly manage the lands they already have! The lack of proper wildlife management by DEC, over and over is sad. Look at the otters.A closure almost twenty years duration, we are no where any closer to a reopening than the day the day they closed it. Nothing but continual excuse after excuse. I truly believe that these biologists haven't got a clue to otter densities in the Catskills,Mohawk Valley, and southern tier.Even more shameful is they could care less about trappers rights. Look at the long term decline of muskrats. Why does the DEC not know the reason? Look at beaver, I can remember when they came to us claiming we were being over run with beaver. What management plan exists for this species? All that I see is beaver kill permits handed out at will with no investigation, and an inhumane treatment of beavers in the southern zone in order to "protect" otters. Look at the DEC deer management programs. What a sad, sad joke. See Saw seasons and kill permits handed out like candy! Humane treatment of animals is out the window. So is harvesting of wildlife when it is prime. Instead they want to have us "harvest" a reduced "quota" when the fur is junk as a "trophy". What mentality! The Bobcat plan is evidence of doing what they darn well pleased with no regard to public input. Now we have the fisher plan, with the lack of sound science, refusal to listen to anything the trappers tried to contribute,A stacked survey, public comments mean absolutely nothing, they don't have a true handle on populations, yet they charge full steam ahead and refuse to listen to anyone. With that kind of performance how can I have any respect? Is this what our future is going to be? All one needs to do is to look at the DEC magazine the Conservationist and what a wonderful magazine it used to be, and look at the environmental rag it is today. To me it reflects much of what I think DEC is today. Pardon me while I go in the corner and puke!
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on May 11, 2015 17:33:15 GMT -5
That corner has a long waiting line... It's no wonder Jefferson thought that we'd fail without periodic (25-years or so) "revolutions." This sort gets entrenched and change the accepted norms over time.
Mr. Webster wasn't the first to create a dictionary, but he was the first to introduce an "American Dictionary of the English Language." While many may know that, what is almost universally missed is his stated reason for creating such a work... he was tired of governments and religions making "deals" with we, the People, and then changing the "deal" over time by changing the meaning of words so as to literally cheat the People out of what was agreed to in the beginning. It helped, for a while. But now, what do those words mean? "Gay" is no longer "innocent happiness." "Marriage" is -- well, looky there, pretty soon you'll be allowed legal rights to marry your horse, or an otter. The 2nd Amendment? Not in New Yorkistan. The list, as you've pointed out, is becoming endless. "The more laws governing the body, the more corrupt the body becomes." We're at - no, we've been at for some time and it's just getting worse - the point where we can't obey one law without violating at least one other.
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Post by papabear on May 13, 2015 13:56:59 GMT -5
Dear Friends, Mr. Paintedpaw for DEC Commissioner! Regards
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on May 16, 2015 16:51:11 GMT -5
After I become commissioner I'm appointing Pappa Bear Director of wildlife. I would clean house in the Furbearer Management Team, and appoint the JTI Committee to manage wildlife.I'd go back to sensible deer regulations; one buck per hunter, per season, any antler size. One doe per person in overpopulated WMU's, Kids 12 to 16 allowed to kill one deer as long as accompanied by an adult. Reduce non resident license fees to reasonable levels provided their state does the same. Eliminate ALL landowner kill permits for deer. Require site inspection by DEC biologists before issuing beaver kill permits. Eliminate the anti photo reg for fish. Remove size limits for lake trout in lake george. Establish sound, reasonable, science based seasons for all fur bearers, with NO QUOTAS, and I would require ALL Personnel to undergo Public Relations training, something so sadly lacking! I would make DEC completely devoid of politics and I would eliminate the "Environmental" portion of the department title. Game Wardens would be game wardens and forest rangers would be forest rangers. Finally I would demand that the State Constitution be updated to allow strictly controlled forest and wildlife management within the forest preserve,and I would require all hikers, cross country skiers and bikers to pay their fair share of fees. How's that for starters, and how many people are now mad at me? DEC would be run as an efficient buisness, not the bureaucratic nightmare it now is!
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Post by papabear on May 17, 2015 9:13:55 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Paintedpaw, That's a WHOLE LOTTA COMMON SENSE your proposing. Unfortunately there's not much of that going on within the DEC these days! Regards
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Post by jsevering on May 17, 2015 15:30:10 GMT -5
" That's a WHOLE LOTTA COMMON SENSE your proposing. Unfortunately there's not much of that going on within the DEC these days!"
a perfect example of that is, in part of their... proposed reg. ...............................................................................
"No person shall use traps of the body-gripping type that have teeth in the jaws."
guess the meaning of a clear back has no meaning to them... oh..that's right, kinda forgot... they were reduced almost to the point of extinction 15 years or so ago with body grippers and dec's scientific 330 trigger reg.
would love to read gordon's bmp notes on body grippers with teeth... must of been something... you know all that testing and money to understand traps.. wonder if we could officially request a copy of the bmp test, has to be a good read...
gotta love it, its absolutely amazing!.. so tell me, how exactly does otter trap regs fit in with a fisher management plan... that was what they were requested under or slid in with, wasn't it, or did i miss something... thought it was fisher, marten and lastly otter plan?... well which one is it, what plan is actually being worked on here...jim
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on May 18, 2015 10:20:27 GMT -5
Good eye Jim, I missed that. And they wonder why we lack respect for them? Guess I'll have to sell all of my body grippers that have teeth! And these birds are regulating trapping when they have NO CLUE what they are talking about!!!!
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Post by redknot on May 18, 2015 11:57:26 GMT -5
What about the logo Al, would you bring the logo back?
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on May 18, 2015 20:43:31 GMT -5
Reading the language in the State Register Seems an awfully lot like out of a page of the anti trappers propaganda!
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Post by jsevering on May 18, 2015 21:23:26 GMT -5
can tell you i wasn't real pleased reading about body grippers with teeth... can you imagine, the image that must portray to a non trapper or the non trapping public in general... even though they don't exist... they must right, the regulation says so...jim
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Post by papabear on May 19, 2015 7:47:25 GMT -5
Dear Friends, Seems to be a lot of underhanded ideas pertaining to trapping coming from the department of environmental preservation, or are they doing some other organizations bidding? Trying to bury a free trapping license into a hunting license, regulations and season changes/closures enacted from baseless and irrelevant research, simply ignoring NYSTA & JTI's voice of reason, non-factual wording added in the syllabus to further add fuel to the antis propaganda......hmmmm seems they have an agenda! Regards
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Post by jsevering on May 19, 2015 20:37:21 GMT -5
i wonder who did write the regs... "traps of the leg - gripping type"... guess theirs no political correctness for our group...they mean foothold traps in a political correct way, don't they. so why not politically correct it now, before its too late...jim ......................................................................................................................
here's an other part that kinda frost your cookies when you read it...
“ the department has determined that this rule making will not have a substantial adverse impact on jobs and employment opportunities. Few, if any, persons actually use recreational trapping as a means of employment, but a modest increase in trapping participation in some select Wildlife Management Units in central and western New York may benefit local businesses and businesses that sell trapping supplies and equipment.” ………………………………………………………………………………………………
guess they never heard of trapping referred to as part of the fur trade and chappy is right it is a trade and historically referred to as such… guess all us present day recreational trappers, who depend on the fur trade to supplement our incomes so we can feed our family or put fuel oil in the tank to keep them warm… or those of us that have seasonal dependent jobs and don’t collect an unemployment check, because were our own bosses… don’t count….
but hey… if we call it recreational trapping, limit harvest opportunity and hammer the poor slob, that needs the extra pocket change to pull himself and his family through until spring time… we can claim were creating business, for those that want to buy lure and traps for their one ethically legally set fisher trap and whatever they use out of the one ounce bottle of call lure to keep that set working for eight check days, all for that “trophy” fisher pelt were allowing them…
who ever wrote that… so you know, that is what we actually see as trappers, its hard to believe… but, you actually have less of an understanding of us, than the animals that you claim to manage and as far as any science goes… put my full name behind that statement and publish it in your wildlife society journal or study papers… that should make it official…. jim
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here's something else to think on, possibly institutionalized by the scientific brain trust.....
if you need a log book and don't request it, in the newly open "recreational trophy harvest area" or in the adirondack/northern zone... are incidentals taken in fox or coon sets illegal to harvest or possess, during the open fisher season without a log book, how about any roadkill fisher during the open season, without a log book also... i didn't see any clause for incidentals or is this going to be one of those famous grey areas... sure is an area they could of benefited by keeping jti in the loop along with a few others cited in this proposal that didn't need any so called scientific basis or background... anyone have an answer or are we going to have to wait until sealing time to find out, if we actually get a ticket or a seal to be able to sell the pelt or pelts.... jim
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on May 21, 2015 4:56:34 GMT -5
imo what is desperately needed to turn things around is more money, more NYSTA membership and more influence in Albany. Without creating multiple and consistent revenue streams from outside current NYSTA membership, nothing will change. Create more money flow and then programs can be created to build new membership along with increased influence in Albany.
What won't accomplish anything at all is our inner-circle bemoaning inside trapper message boards. Unless we make some serious and dramatic changes right now, things will only get worse at an even faster rate.
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Post by jsevering on May 21, 2015 7:51:29 GMT -5
we also need as trappers to reach out individually so we know were heard, get jti and the fur management team back in a working, meaningful relationship... this bothered me so much along with not knowing if concerns were truly getting heard, worked through or addressed, i called to voice some of mine... finding a contact number is not the easiest thing to do, unless you know the region of the person your comfortable talking to or trust... contact numbers are not listed for the fur management team, hope dec corrects that problem.
was glad to hear al had made contact already about body grippers with teeth in the jaws... was reassured that the fur management team wanted a working relationship with nysta and jti also, doubt they'll be holding hands and going to church together, but we do need both.... jim
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Post by chappy on May 21, 2015 8:02:27 GMT -5
There is NO, working with them anymore. NYSTA isn't suppose to be the lonely wife with a black eye that keeps going back! The regulations are too restrictive, specifically when applied to private landowners.
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Post by jsevering on May 21, 2015 8:30:58 GMT -5
didn't say we should be chappy, where exactly, did i say that?... we however, still need to address things and be heard at a grass root level, to the best of our ability... doesn't mean you all or i... have to swap spit on everything, but if something comes up like body grippers with teeth... i want it addressed officially as a member and jti is still that bridge... jim
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on May 21, 2015 8:32:11 GMT -5
In frustration I have contacted the DEC Commissioner regarding the total disregard of NYSTA and the JTI Committee in this entire Fisher Management Plan. As a courtesy I also contacted Gordon so that he would not be blind sided. Gordon is retiring in July. Yesterday I received a letter from Gordon telling me that Commissioner Martens had asked him to respond to me regarding the JTI, "a committee formed to ensure effective communications between NYSTA and DEC". It is my belief that everything dealing timing wise with the plan; the release of the draft, the 30 day comment period, now the notice in the state register, the 45 day comment period which ends just prior to the July 1 deadline, have all been purposely pre planned. I think, like Bob suggested, that those syllabuses have already been printed. I contacted DEC on my own. In no way did I mean to circumvent the JTI Committee, although they are aware that I did so. As Jim Severing stated I do hope that relations between JTI and DEC can be restored. I hate to think that a history of 27 years will be thrown away. DEC has indicated they want to maintain a dialogue. I am furious over this terrible fisher plan, but we need to look to the future. Pine Marten and otter are next for management plans. Gordon and I are planning to meet in June and I am hoping that other JTI members can join us.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on May 21, 2015 11:21:18 GMT -5
After I become commissioner I'm appointing Pappa Bear Director of wildlife. I would clean house in the Furbearer Management Team, and appoint the JTI Committee to manage wildlife.I'd go back to sensible deer regulations; one buck per hunter, per season, any antler size. One doe per person in overpopulated WMU's, Kids 12 to 16 allowed to kill one deer as long as accompanied by an adult. Reduce non resident license fees to reasonable levels provided their state does the same. Eliminate ALL landowner kill permits for deer. Require site inspection by DEC biologists before issuing beaver kill permits. Eliminate the anti photo reg for fish. Remove size limits for lake trout in lake george. Establish sound, reasonable, science based seasons for all fur bearers, with NO QUOTAS, and I would require ALL Personnel to undergo Public Relations training, something so sadly lacking! I would make DEC completely devoid of politics and I would eliminate the "Environmental" portion of the department title. Game Wardens would be game wardens and forest rangers would be forest rangers. Finally I would demand that the State Constitution be updated to allow strictly controlled forest and wildlife management within the forest preserve,and I would require all hikers, cross country skiers and bikers to pay their fair share of fees. How's that for starters, and how many people are now mad at me? DEC would be run as an efficient buisness, not the bureaucratic nightmare it now is! Hey, can I be appointed to be part of your Goon Squad? Y'know, I'd be one of the guys "reaching out" to the anti's, asking them for their input and opinions, all the while being clear that NOTHING they have to say is of any value to me and it'll NEVER be used in drafting regulations, but even though they're wasting their time I REALLY encourage them to participate since that's the stupid law anyhow, and, oh I dunno, let me shadow some DECon personnel and I'll learn the ropes fast enough. And I'm NOT referring to the field people, that I KNOW are in agreement with us but they've got a job-security gag order going on and they're good people, obeying their superiors... who just happen to be BENEATH them. Anyways, excuse the sarcasm (to be clear, ONLY directed at DECon) but my head is starting to hurt with all this crap at every level; local, state, federal, even international. Can someone change the channel? I'm in need of some good news even if it doesn't sell as well as the bad.
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