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Post by squash on Apr 21, 2015 15:41:06 GMT -5
I feel better now, that many of you have finally realized what I've known for several years. Opinions and knowledge of Those of us with boots onthe ground and many years of common sense and observation data, means nothing to the Nuevo DEC.
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Post by newfox1 on Apr 21, 2015 17:26:33 GMT -5
it would seem that most of us are on the same page. is there any biologist that are pro trapping that we as trappers can lobby.as much as I don't like politics we may have to beat them at there own game.successful trappers to quote fred Lawrence are" above average intelegence, organized,agressive,and a pearson who can make the best out of any situation and is resourceful." lets put the trap where they want to put there foot.!!!
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Post by rendezvous on Apr 22, 2015 6:50:54 GMT -5
If we have leaders that are disillusioned and defeated, we need new representation at the table.
If you think you are beaten, you are. If you think you dare not, you don’t. If you think you are out-classed, you are. If you’d like to win, but think you can’t , it’s almost certain you won’t. If you think you’ll lose, you’ve lost. For out in the world you’ll find that success begins with a person’s will; it’s all in the state of mind.
Maybe don’t try to overwhelm the board but try one on one and maybe gain an ally one at a time? Is NTA involved? Can the NTA provide assistance or addition representation at the table? We need numbers! Enrollment should be quick, easy, simple. We need to provide incentives, not dysfunction.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Apr 22, 2015 7:03:36 GMT -5
If we have leaders that are disillusioned and defeated, we need new representation at the table. Maybe don’t try to overwhelm the board but try one on one and maybe gain an ally one at a time? Is NTA involved? Can the NTA provide assistance or addition representation at the table? We need numbers! Enrollment should be quick, easy, simple. We need to provide incentives, not dysfunction. believe me when I say that we all, ALL of us agree with your sentiment. So let's not mistake that for one moment. But all of what you suggest has been thought of before, tried before, applied before. There is nothing that can be thought of today that our predecessors have not already thought of a million times yesterday. The NTA won't give any input to state regulations... only if there is an outside threat of anti-trapping to some degree. They won't even interject where states are trying to restrict or abolish non-resident trapping, let alone state DEC and trapper's negotiations. Of course we need numbers! Lots of them! So why aren't new NYSTA members signing up in droves? Why haven't all of the efforts, all of the pleas thru times past resulted in steady growth of new membership? The membership of every state and national association is a tiny percentage of the overall licensed trappers in those respective other states. Why is that a fact?
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Post by papabear on Apr 22, 2015 7:07:38 GMT -5
" inspite of what the biologists will tell you, the ECO's do not favor the fisher plan." Mr. paintedpaw
Dear Mr. Paintedpaw, I couldn't agree more! We're fortunate to have some ECO's around here who are genuinely in support of folks having success and enjoyment while afield. Just wish I could train a couple of them to carry a jug of hot coffee for when they stop and want to shoot the breeze for a few minutes, lol.
Regards
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Apr 22, 2015 8:09:56 GMT -5
all of the ECOs I know and deal with are super-nice guys... best of the best. When I use the term "DEC" it is generic for stuffed shirt types who make decisions from behind urban-office desks, not the excellent officers with actual mud on their boots.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Apr 22, 2015 8:36:56 GMT -5
Same here. "The man with experience will never be at the mercy of a man with a theory" is the way the old saying used to go... But the Golden Rule was somehow similarly abominated along the way, too: "He who has the gold, makes the rules." We're being governed by the unelected, who are appointed by the unelectable, who for whatever reasons continue to be elected...
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Apr 22, 2015 8:37:36 GMT -5
...by the governed.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Apr 22, 2015 19:57:39 GMT -5
I'm not at present recalling the author but a few decades ago I read: "The more rules governing the body, the more corrupt the body becomes." You can't obey one "rule" without violating at least one other.
With a system like ours that is so self-serving that it cannot justify its existence beyond the incessant writing of new laws, what hope have we that anything good can come of it?
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Post by k9goodtimes on Apr 22, 2015 20:41:01 GMT -5
Quis custodiet, ipsos custodes?
Who will guard the guards?
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Post by jsevering on Apr 22, 2015 21:18:02 GMT -5
just about five years ago, nysta got a nice letter from the marine and wildlife director patricia riexinger expressing her desire for a working relationship, if i remember right... think she even went into detail on some concerns regarding proposed otter studies, bobcat studies, beaver permit problems and how educational the spring nysta meeting was and she was looking forward to attending the convention... only a mention was made, on how they believed fisher were expanding into western ny, but no mention of a fisher and marten management plan to be completed prior to otters...it wasn't a priority then...just mention on how the new at that time, planned otter studies would or should be completed in 2013 i believe... they didn't even start these other plans or camera studies until 2013... makes you wonder if the agenda is all on the same page or not or how things got so crossed
if the people who work for her wont sit down or have a working dialog with nysta about their concerns... maybe she would, know its jumping the chain of command, so to speak... but she expressed a want for a working relationship at the very least maybe she could inform us of the full extent of these plans that we have to wait to see them in there passed and official form before we know, what we are even truly up against... just a random thought in regard to her letter, expressing a desire to work together... if the people who represent her at the meetings are not or are being told not too... there has to be a reason and a reason why these plans are ass backwards and have to be presented in the order that they are, without working with us and keeping us in the dark...maybe she could shed some light on the issue, for us... jim
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come to think about it in 2010 didn't they say they weren't worried about the fishers as the ny area take closely followed that of maine's take, cycle wise... maybe a lag of a year or two difference with the ups and downs, so why now the chinese math or new mathematical equation that shows a desire for such a drastic change with different variables in theory being applied,in this plan.. im just scratching my head wondering what happened that was so drastic in such a short time frame that everything, even us.... is being tossed aside in a few short years... makes you scratch your head some... but then again we don't even get the dec furbearer newsletters they promised to start up again, so we can be informed on whats happening... which also is a head scratcher... lot for a simple lay person to understand,keeping them in dark and then being hit with such a pile driver of a management plan and not knowing if that midnight admendment was the first and only tap or just the start of a series of taps.... jim
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 23, 2015 9:37:07 GMT -5
Jim,
I met Patti Rexinger at the spring meeting at Morrisville. I was pleased with her enthusiasm towards trapping. Also I have worked for years with the DEC wildlife biologists under a cordial, friendly relationship. I have met commissioners and top brass. I worked on Lake George for eight years and know many ECO's as a result; all great guys. Something, most definately has changed. A couple of these biologists are trappers. I have seen these biologists do a 180 degree reversal on at least one issue. As much critical as I have been of them over the fisher plan, most of the biologists are indeed intelligent, nice guys. However, something very drastic has changed. I wish I knew the reason. I would think that the charge of DEC would be the welfare of the species, as well as providing proper hunting, fishing, and trapping opportunities. JTI did sit down with the fur Management Team and gave them our input. Sadly, not one single point of ours was adopted.Everything that we said fell upon deaf ears. The biologists have now taken a position of tunnel vision, even inspite of the public comments. Why do we bother, if they refuse to even listen to us? The professionalism and cordial relationship is gone. How these people can produce a plan of this poor quality is beyond me. If adopted, New York will see a grand mess of three different seasons, quotas in some areas, and none in others. You are limited to one fisher on one side of the road,and no limit at all on the other.I could go on and on.Season dates are supposedly based on the results of a corrupt survey designed to get the answers they wanted. The JTI survey, which produced different answers was totally ignored. Much monkey see, monkey do has been incorporated from other states, such as quotas, while reasonable season dates from New England have been ignored.It appears as if they are deliberately out to punish trappers and welfare of the species comes last. So what is going on? The refusal to listen along with the sarcasim and not telling us the truth has turned me very sour and bitter. They tell us they want to continue a dialogue with us. My question is what dialogue?
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Post by jsevering on Apr 23, 2015 10:24:47 GMT -5
maybe we need to go to her to find out... after all think its fair to say we were their for them when the towns wanted wildlife to be managed with a vote in their townships and not by dec managers and other things they felt were important... this is no different for us.... but it is us and not them getting hit here...
we go out of way to support them, swallowed and compromised on the unwanted regulations that already been imposed upon us before this, even though we bicker... gordon even said with out each other.. their is no other or something to that effect once upon a long time ago... its baffling... maybe we need to go to her for a dialog or at least some answers to why this approach/or a set in stone "theory" is being advanced.. because its not an exact science, their selling and cramming down our throats here at the very least, even they should recognize that... jim
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Post by SawmillCreek on Apr 23, 2015 11:47:53 GMT -5
Sadly enough, if the DEC insists on neglecting trappers & trapping when it comes to issues such as beaver traps, fisher seasons, otter seasons, etc then who am I to care one whit about what they do? From what it appears coming down the pipeline next season, the regs on effective beaver traps will be worse than ever before. My attitude any more is one of indifference. If other trappers out there opt to game the system and poach fisher from various zones with staggered seasons, etc then what do I care? Go ahead and have at it, won't get any flack from me. Same with guys who reportedly whack and keep otter. I've yet to catch one ever myself, but if the new regs make my 9" bodygrips traps obsolete I'll be switching to magnum #220s for beaver sets in tight channels and crossover locations. Hopefully any otter that wander thru can find their way around those 7" magnum traps, I can no longer be bothered worrying about such things myself. If the DEC, our elected servants paid by sportsmen dollars treat us, their true employers with indifference, imo tit for tat. Id like to hear a little more about the proposed new beaver trap regs. I personally havent heard anything, but I certainly dont want to purchase a bunch of new 330s as planned at the convention and not be able to use them. If you could enlighten me on this i would appriciate it. Thanks.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 23, 2015 11:51:43 GMT -5
How many times have we said, "Let the biologists manage wildlife, not the politicians"? I can remember going to bat and sending a letter of support when Gordon's job was in jeopardy. I can remember being at the dinner in Wisconsin, with other NY trappers when the NTA honored him. Saturday he is being conducted into the NYS Outdoorsmen's Hall of Fame at Canastota. I am not blaming Gordon for this mess, he has always been honest with me, although there are those that blame him. It is my belief that the problem comes from much higher.
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Post by whartonrattrapper on Apr 23, 2015 13:03:22 GMT -5
I don't feel I have enough knowledge to speak of who is pushing this plan, but I wrote to Senator Jim Seward about this issue and here's his response. Thanks for your note relative to the state DEC’s proposed fisher management plan. I am glad to hear from you. I would urge you to submit your comments directly to the DEC, as the legislature does not approve or act on wildlife management plans for individual species. Adoption of wildlife management plans doesn’t fall within the purview of the state legislature. In my view, having politicians decide wildlife management policy would politicize sound game management and lead to disastrous consequences for our outdoor sporting traditions.
Thank you for your comments. Jim Senator Jim Seward 518-455-3131 www.senatorjimseward.comJim feels the same way we do. To bad all politicians didn't. I have since e-mailed him to see if he knows who is pushing this plan, he has yet to respond.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Apr 23, 2015 13:09:34 GMT -5
whitey, someone here with more knowledge of pending legislation than I have mentioned in a prior thread on otter trapping that the southern-zone trigger restrictions currently in place on 10" traps will include 8.5" size and up. That would effectively negate using #280s or 9" Duke models with normal, effective trigger setups for humane dispatch on beavers... our targeted catch species.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 23, 2015 14:26:47 GMT -5
There has not much been said about it, but I believe Austin is correct. More inhumane treatment of beaver in order to protect those "sacred cow" otters. I wonder what back room deals were made with that re-introduction?
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Post by mole on Apr 23, 2015 14:36:26 GMT -5
One alternative the state could employ in the otter sensitive areas is ban all body traps.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Apr 23, 2015 15:24:01 GMT -5
One alternative the state could employ in the otter sensitive areas is ban all body traps. You might substitute the words "employ" with "attempt" Can you imagine the outcry and backlash such a proposition would immediately unleash? That would get mighty ugly in a real hurry, publicly.
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Post by squash on Apr 23, 2015 16:07:22 GMT -5
All of this controversy could have been avoided by not reintroducing otter and fisher in the southern zone. I think most trappers probably endorsed these reintro. And thought it would be a good thing. Now it's reared it's ugly head and bitten use in the backside with all of these new trap regulations to protect these sacred cows. Can you imagine the problems in the northern zone had the Lynx introduction taken hold and they would have released grey wolves?
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Apr 23, 2015 16:16:54 GMT -5
otters were reintroduced along with great promises for how that would soon benefit trappers at the time. Fisher are a natural expansion from PA and upstate NY into suitable habitat of the southern zone. Ample populations of both exist. The simple solution was to offer sensible, unfettered fur seasons for both and let natural reproduction dictate management decisions after that. Unfortunately, the day may never come where sensible management seasons are opened for either/both.
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Post by rendezvous on Apr 23, 2015 18:58:27 GMT -5
otters were reintroduced along with great promises for how that would soon benefit trappers at the time. Fisher are a natural expansion from PA and upstate NY into suitable habitat of the southern zone. Ample populations of both exist. The simple solution was to offer sensible, unfettered fur seasons for both and let natural reproduction dictate management decisions after that. Unfortunately, the day may never come where sensible management seasons are opened for either/both. "unfettered fur seasons for both and let natural reproduction dictate management decisions after that." How would that work, when Fishers are no longer caught then go to a limit or closed season? Again, my concern is that the Catskills and Adirondacks have large areas that are less accessible or largely less trapped due to practicality, where the Southern Tier is largely accessible which could lend itself to over-harvest. Personally I like the "dipping the toe in" approach in the Southern tier as long as their adjustments in limits and season dates are done in an expeditious manner. As far as Otters in my area? I personally have never seen one or have found any sign? I myself have only heard of one incidental catch some 15 years ago. But I haven't been looking for them either...
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Post by k9goodtimes on Apr 23, 2015 19:20:57 GMT -5
Again, my concern is that the Catskills and Adirondacks have large areas that are less accessible or largely less trapped due to practicality, where the Southern Tier is largely accessible which could lend itself to over-harvest. Personally I like the "dipping the toe in" approach in the Southern tier as long as their adjustments in limits and season dates are done in an expeditious manner. I agree about newly expanded areas in southern zone. If they(DEC)will revisit it in 3 years based on actual harvest numbers, I wouldn't have a complaint about the proposed changes for the newly expanded areas.....but they wont.
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Post by rendezvous on Apr 23, 2015 19:49:11 GMT -5
Again, my concern is that the Catskills and Adirondacks have large areas that are less accessible or largely less trapped due to practicality, where the Southern Tier is largely accessible which could lend itself to over-harvest. Personally I like the "dipping the toe in" approach in the Southern tier as long as their adjustments in limits and season dates are done in an expeditious manner. I agree about newly expanded areas in southern zone. If they(DEC)will revisit it in 3 years based on actual harvest numbers, I wouldn't have a complaint about the proposed changes for the newly expanded areas.....but they wont. This conversation is coming full circle... How do they(DEC) get "actual harvest numbers" if many don't want to participate with the survey?
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