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Post by SawmillCreek on Apr 23, 2015 20:03:33 GMT -5
We have fishers everywhere here. Most guys are catching multiple a year now. I myself caught and released 3 last fall. The DEC out of Allegeny has at least one guy driving around looking for otter sign now and he says there is tons of it on certain drainages.
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Post by k9goodtimes on Apr 23, 2015 20:09:48 GMT -5
No survey needed. Actual harvested, tagged carcasses will provide the proof needed to expand or reduce quotas, season dates, and possible expansion into other areas.
I want 8n and 8y open in 3 years. If it ment biting my tongue and it was guaranteed to be reevaluated in 3 years, based on harvest numbers, I'd play ball.
But I dont have faith in DEC to revisit the plan before its 10 year mark. They have made those types of false promises in the past. They refuse to acknowledge the NYSTA input now. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, I take my toys and go home.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Apr 23, 2015 20:11:18 GMT -5
Don't they keep track of pelt sealing? There ya go...
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Post by k9goodtimes on Apr 23, 2015 20:16:22 GMT -5
Don't they keep track of pelt sealing? There ya go... Exactly!! There is all the data they need.
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Post by rendezvous on Apr 23, 2015 20:55:39 GMT -5
No survey needed. Actual harvested, tagged carcasses will provide the proof needed to expand or reduce quotas, season dates, and possible expansion into other areas. I want 8n and 8y open in 3 years. If it ment biting my tongue and it was guaranteed to be reevaluated in 3 years, based on harvest numbers, I'd play ball. But I dont have faith in DEC to revisit the plan before its 10 year mark. They have made those types of false promises in the past. They refuse to acknowledge the NYSTA input now. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, I take my toys and go home. Yeah, I forgot the furbearer possession tag and pelt sealing, it's been a while for me. I still think a well structured survey could be relative to the evaluation of the program and the reevaluation of the program in 3 years sounds reasonable to me also...
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Post by papabear on Apr 23, 2015 22:17:51 GMT -5
"No survey needed. Actual harvested, tagged carcasses will provide the proof needed to expand or reduce quotas, season dates, and possible expansion into other areas." Mr. k9goodtimes
Dear Friends, WHOA,,,WAIT RIGHT THERE,,,,,, That's not exactly a good idea and is somewhat flawed thinking!!!!!!!....here's why...... Has it even been considered that the Adirondack fisher harvest numbers are off partly because some top fisher trappers have slowed down, died, not trapped fisher for the past couple years for whatever reason. It don't take many of these guys catches not being included to throw the final harvest tally off and make it appear there is something awry. New trappers simply aren't knocking down the same fisher numbers the seasoned guys, who've spent years putting together good producing fisher lines, were....... I can think of at least five and possibly six guys, who's combined catch would easily total 200-300+ fisher to the harvest numbers, and that's just here in the southern Dacks'. How many other trappers from the north country have slowed down because of age, died or just aren't trapping fisher anymore? ALL FACTORS NEED TO BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION!!!!!
Regards
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Post by mrlongbeard1 on Apr 23, 2015 23:25:19 GMT -5
"No survey needed. Actual harvested, tagged carcasses will provide the proof needed to expand or reduce quotas, season dates, and possible expansion into other areas." Mr. k9goodtimes Dear Friends, WHOA,,,WAIT RIGHT THERE,,,,,, That's not exactly a good idea and is somewhat flawed thinking!!!!!!!....here's why...... Has it even been considered that the Adirondack fisher harvest numbers are off partly because some top fisher trappers have slowed down, died, not trapped fisher for the past couple years for whatever reason. It don't take many of these guys catches not being included to throw the final harvest tally off and make it appear there is something awry. New trappers simply aren't knocking down the same fisher numbers the seasoned guys, who've spent years putting together good producing fisher lines, were....... I can think of at least five and possibly six guys, who's combined catch would easily total 200-300+ fisher to the harvest numbers, and that's just here in the southern Dacks'. How many other trappers from the north country have slowed down because of age, died or just aren't trapping fisher anymore? ALL FACTORS NEED TO BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION!!!!! Regards There is a lot of truth in what you have written. Like most problems they are multiple considerations.That's why the trappers are getting frustrated.They (we) feel that we're not being listened to. Not to solve the problems but to add important information that has been learned by year of experiance and observation in the field.Only when the DEC uses all the avalible information and science can they make a informed intelegent decision.
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Post by k9goodtimes on Apr 24, 2015 4:52:49 GMT -5
"No survey needed. Actual harvested, tagged carcasses will provide the proof needed to expand or reduce quotas, season dates, and possible expansion into other areas." Mr. k9goodtimes Dear Friends, WHOA,,,WAIT RIGHT THERE,,,,,, That's not exactly a good idea and is somewhat flawed thinking!!!!!!!....here's why...... Has it even been considered that the Adirondack fisher harvest numbers are off partly because some top fisher trappers have slowed down, died, not trapped fisher for the past couple years for whatever reason. It don't take many of these guys catches not being included to throw the final harvest tally off and make it appear there is something awry. New trappers simply aren't knocking down the same fisher numbers the seasoned guys, who've spent years putting together good producing fisher lines, were....... I can think of at least five and possibly six guys, who's combined catch would easily total 200-300+ fisher to the harvest numbers, and that's just here in the southern Dacks'. How many other trappers from the north country have slowed down because of age, died or just aren't trapping fisher anymore? ALL FACTORS NEED TO BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION!!!!! Regards Papabear, You are absolutely correct in trapper experience vs catch rates. My comments were in reference to the southern zone expansion areas that will be saddled with 9 day seasons and a bag limit. Again, I don't support the change to the traditional areas(Adirondacks/Catskills), heck I dont support any of it, but if I knew they would revisit the newly opened southern zone areas in 3 years and adjust accordingly for catch rate, I wouldn't have a problem with the regs they wrote for the new southern expansion. I support the chance for New harvest opportunity, but I am not in favor of reducing it without hard science to prove it. Bruce
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Apr 24, 2015 5:29:17 GMT -5
We have fishers everywhere here. Most guys are catching multiple a year now. I myself caught and released 3 last fall. The DEC out of Allegeny has at least one guy driving around looking for otter sign now and he says there is tons of it on certain drainages. I know of three heavily used otter crossovers on three different Finger lake drainages that are all different animal groups. Each one looked like heavily beaten coon trails last season, and I fed trapped muskrats to those otter in two locations. If you know where to look for otter sign and most importantly what it actually looks like, you can find such on every body of water that runs anywhere for distance.
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Post by rendezvous on Apr 24, 2015 8:50:16 GMT -5
"No survey needed. Actual harvested, tagged carcasses will provide the proof needed to expand or reduce quotas, season dates, and possible expansion into other areas." Mr. k9goodtimes Dear Friends, WHOA,,,WAIT RIGHT THERE,,,,,, That's not exactly a good idea and is somewhat flawed thinking!!!!!!!....here's why...... Has it even been considered that the Adirondack fisher harvest numbers are off partly because some top fisher trappers have slowed down, died, not trapped fisher for the past couple years for whatever reason. It don't take many of these guys catches not being included to throw the final harvest tally off and make it appear there is something awry. New trappers simply aren't knocking down the same fisher numbers the seasoned guys, who've spent years putting together good producing fisher lines, were....... I can think of at least five and possibly six guys, who's combined catch would easily total 200-300+ fisher to the harvest numbers, and that's just here in the southern Dacks'. How many other trappers from the north country have slowed down because of age, died or just aren't trapping fisher anymore? ALL FACTORS NEED TO BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION!!!!! Regards Mr. Shaut My comments were in reference to the southern tier zone expansion areas also. I was only using the Adirondacks and Catskills as an example of the disparity between there and the southern zone expansion areas, and why I support the "dipping the toe in" approach for the southern tier zone expansion areas. I couldn't agree more, all factors need to be taken into consideration. But wouldn't a well structured survey show if a accomplished Trapper has set 100 traps, 20 traps or none year to year due to age, illness, moved away or whatever personal reasons? Without this information it could skew harvest numbers and effect management decisions. This is why I feel Trappers should participate and stay pro-active. Respectfully, Bart
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Post by papabear on Apr 24, 2015 11:42:42 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Rendevous, The problems I have with the DEC/Cornell surveys is, 1st, They tend to be crafted to collect information that suits the desired or intended outcome of those collecting the data. No where is it possible to include a written response, nor does an attached written response bear any weight toward the surveys outcome, because these surveys are tallied by machine. If each question asked, included an answer selection worded : [do not agree with any of the answers presented] perhaps these surveys would have merit..... 2nd, What is the criteria for a random selection of trappers? How widely varied is the experience of those selected to respond? What about species specific or terrain differences? Do they take any of that into consideration?.....3rd, How can a random survey of a small number of trappers with varied experience, trapping a variety of furbearers, selected from across the entire state be considered overwhelming, factual data to be used to support their studies and proposals?
Friend, I'm all for being pro-active, but I also know it wise practice to follow the lead and direction of NYSTA and JTI when it comes to these issues!
Regards
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Apr 24, 2015 19:35:44 GMT -5
I was "tied up" for awhile- Good post and read... On the new coni regs- Won't 280s be "safe", being 8' x 8"?
I did think of ONE thing trappers have gotten- Trapper ID on trap tags as opposed to name and addy being a must. Wow, are we blessed!! And- Is it too late to be "paranoid" about the DEC?
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Post by papabear on Apr 25, 2015 7:33:19 GMT -5
"Is it too late to be "paranoid" about the DEC" traps82
Mr. Traps82, I don't believe "paranoid" is the proper term. However the feeling that comes to most guys mind does start with a P followed by an I and a couple of SS's and ending with mr. moles first name ED.
Regards
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Apr 25, 2015 9:14:55 GMT -5
Spooky Question #7- conspiracy theories
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Post by papabear on Apr 25, 2015 9:39:11 GMT -5
Spooky Question #7- conspiracy theories..........Guess you got me on that one, lol. Reagrds
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Post by peltseeker on Apr 25, 2015 10:00:06 GMT -5
My two cents .... I have just completed my first season as a licensed law abiding NYS trapper.... Enjoyed myself immensely and learned alot .... trapped for fisher and caught none ... now i know the fisher are there, have seen them with my own eyes during hours and hours of observation while bow hunting and actually saw two opening morning of rifle season but due to inexperience i caught none ... trapped for beaver and caught three ... now i know there are otter there because i have seen them with my own eyes while trout fishing for many hours in the dawn of morning ....i didnt catch any otters but did have a horrific incident with one of my beavers being foul caught in a 330 ... my triggers were offset and tied as per law ... my 330 in a fenced channel set in about two feet of water ... the beaver caught around his back legs and tail sitting on the shore waiting for me and making a god awful gutteral almost groan ... upon seeing me approach he began to thrash and wrap himself into a ball of brush on the shore making a quick kill strike to his head impossible ... pulling him from this tangle also impossible for the harder i pulled the more he struggled to survive ... nothing to do but make the walk back to the car and drive back to the house get the .22 and make the drive and walk back the whole time at the suffering of this animal .. now some of you will say that we shouldnt discuss non target catches or foul catches because of the antis reading these posts ... I say HOGWASH !!!!! if the antis are reading these boards they should know that the rules they influence are creating the problems.. My 330 if set as intended would have quickly killed that beaver and if it wasnt an instant kill the proper set would have drowned him before he was able to pull the stake and fencing down and gotten to the shore ....my reference to the fisher would be to this .. i have caught none in my first year so none tagged and sealed or sold so to many people they might think there are none where i trap .. again i say HOGWASH .... hours spent in the field seeing their sign and seeing them confirms they are there i am just a beginner and they have thousands of years of learning ... my reference to the otter the same ... i know they are there because i have seen their sign and watched them play on the shore ... but that is because i am out there as often as i can be watching and learning ... Now to the DEC i say this ... I am new to this game and know the animals are there in numbers and i have told you so in my survey answers .. if you want me to do your job and tell you what i catch and see then listen to my answers, hear what i say and take it as fact because i am out there hours upon hours ... if you dont want to listen then please do your job and spend hours and hours looking listening and learning ... no hypotheticals no half truths real hours afield .... and to my fellow trappers new and old i say this ... dont have disregard for the law dont try to bend the rules no matter how we feel it will only speed up the demise of trapping in this state ... Do fill out your surveys no matter how we feel those are actual numbers from hours and hours in the field and they represent that ...actual numbers and numbers dont lie ..if all the surveys are turned in accurately then its harder for the uneducated to deny the numbers ...we will never beat DEC because they make the rules and own the deck of cards but we do have the ability to beat the HOUSE ... and by that i mean electing officials in albany that have some real background in the field ... has anyone in here thought of running for legislature or senator have any of the NYSTA board members started a war chest to have lobbying money ... donations from members and those that have any financial gain from trapping could total a tidy sum and carry weight .... not just the trapping industry dollars but the furriers and clothing industry and leather goods producers .....I have learned alot this year and enjoyed what i have accomplished and look forward to being a licensed law abiding NYS trapper for life ...... just my two cents !!!!!!
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Post by peltseeker on Apr 25, 2015 10:07:13 GMT -5
NYSTA yearly trapping survey collected and submitted to DEC and Cornell on behalf of the trappers and predator hunters of new york state in cooperation with all just a thought
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Apr 25, 2015 11:27:18 GMT -5
Spooky Question #7- conspiracy theories..........Guess you got me on that one, lol. Reagrds HAHAHA Wasn't trying too LOL I love reading your take on things- Always makes me think
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Post by rendezvous on Apr 25, 2015 13:17:34 GMT -5
NYSTA yearly trapping survey collected and submitted to DEC and Cornell on behalf of the trappers and predator hunters of new york state in cooperation with all just a thought I would like the same thing, maybe different polls/surveys on here or another venue to address concerns/issues and forward the results to DEC/Cornell. I also wonder, with internet, why the state can't do a statewide survey in which every license holder has an opportunity to participate as appropriate? There's probably a program out there that could manage the whole survey?
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Post by peltseeker on Apr 26, 2015 11:28:48 GMT -5
Hmmmmm what a thing for the antis to think about !!!!! these trappers actually care enough about the animals they pursue to count and record sightings and signs and collect this data for the benefit of all ?
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Apr 26, 2015 11:52:15 GMT -5
Hmmmmm what a thing for the antis to think about !!!!! these trappers actually care enough about the animals they pursue to count and record sightings and signs and collect this data for the benefit of all ? 1) They don't care 2) The DEC does not care either
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Post by silverfox on Apr 27, 2015 5:48:30 GMT -5
agreed traps82, ive seen this more than once in the past (in other states) and seems to come full circle periodically, if the "data" is not collected and solicited by the "appropriate offices" then its not considered legitimate (what that really means is it doesnt cater to their hidden agenda's) and therefore falls on deaf ears, its great to try and generate courses of action and remain pro-active, but it certainly gets old and extremely aggravating to watch the bureaucratic bums disregard the outdoorsmans input and continuously blow us all off like belly lint, bottom line in todays social chaos, with its plethora of "special groups", the final decision caters to who has their $$$$ deepest into the pockets of the decision makers, just a cold hard fact, money talks.....and u know the rest of that analogy
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Post by bobsamuelson on Apr 28, 2015 17:15:41 GMT -5
When asked, at the last BOD meeting, whether it was running too late to be in the State Register and still be printed in the syllabus, the answer was that the window is closing with the latest date to go to publication would be July 1st. I don't know how others took it, but I believe it is already printed!
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