paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 688
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 19, 2015 15:42:12 GMT -5
Yesterday I attended the NYSTA Board of Directors Meeting. DEC had a representative there and we were told that DEC intends to push ahead with little to no changes to the fisher management plan. When I asked DEC how many, if any, of the JTI/NYSTA suggestions were adopted they could not name any! Are trappers that far off base on this issue? We were told that the plan is based upon science and we all know that is far, far from the truth! When we asked how the season dates were determined they claim that it was based upon the DEC/Cornell trapper survey. The JTI survey which came up with different answers was completely ignored.So much for their "science". I am truly disappointed. I thought that a number of these biologists were my friends. Their stubborn refusal to listen to us, along with their condescending attitude towards us has really soured me. For the first time DEC has refused to listen to any suggestions of the JTI. Without question the Fur Management team has driven a wedge deeper and harder between the trappers and DEC. Is this the "new generation" of biologists that is upon us? I am really beginning to believe that there are a lot of wolves in sheep's clothing out there.
Consequently I must point out the following facts:
Thanks to the incompetence of the DEC we are approaching close to two decades of season closure for otters in the Mohawk Valley and Catskills. And oh yes, Mr.Biologist I do not trap otters in the Mohawk Valley, but I represent those that do. Those kinds of sarcastic comments are exactly why I have lost faith in you.
I would ask what rock the DEC biologists have been hiding under when it comes to the perceived decline of fisher in the Adirondacks to the point that they "no longer can sustain themselves". Really??? If that is true where has DEC been? Why did they allow it to happen? Too busy getting their advanced degrees?
Why did the sportspeople of New York have to go through the legislature a good number of years ago to stop the slaughter of does in the Adirondacks? Were they too interested in all of those five dollar bills accompanying the party permit applicationa?
Why do we see a continual see-saw setting of deer hunting regulations and an obvious inability of DEC to manage the whitetails herd. Oh sure, hand out the land owner kill permits like it was candy. Is that another example of the DEC's "science".
Beaver kill permits are handed out without ever checking the complaint site.
Beaver must be trapped with offset triggers in the southern zone in order to protect the "sacred cow" otters. No matter that this is much less humane to the beavers.At the same time we can't suspend an animal in a body gripper which is much more humane because it might offend some mental midget. Catering to being "politically correct"?
Remember when these "scientists" were feeding relocation otters at Cornell with chemically dangerous salmon from the great lakes? More of their "science".
It appears to me that in spite of their claims otherwise, the DEC biologists are under great political pressure from above and they fear for their jobs. These days everything must have a "management plan" to the point of being ridiculous, or might it be to justify their jobs.
Over the years I have repeatedly aided DEC whenever I could; everything from supplying mink, fisher, and otter carcasses, to participating in the fisher BMP trapping study (that was another joke).I've attended their public information meetings and sent in my public comments. NO MORE! Now they want beaver meat for more studies. They will get none from me! I've said enough.
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Post by papabear on Apr 19, 2015 20:55:59 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Paintedpaw, They seem to have a "management plan" for everything but that, which was placed in their TRUST, the state forest preserves!
Black bears just like the fisher are migrating to habitat that supports their need to eat so DEC opened a state wide bear season. Where does that logic come from? There is plenty of fisher around the Dacks', one just needs to know where to look for them and then gain access and trust me they are not hanging out in the States STERILE Forests
I live very near the Mohawk River and know where there are several family groups of otter within 5-10 minutes drive from my house. See otter on most of the tributaries enough to know there is a healthy resident population. Used to call in sightings but never once did I get a response.
DEC's pompous, arrogant, and condescending attitude towards trappers is completely unacceptable. Further they insult our intelligence, requesting that we participate in their surveys that have been manipulated and prepared to achieve their desired outcomes. I have a suggestion for DEC and their bogus surveys...they can keep 'em and wipe there a$$es with them ....would be about what there truly worth and they could actually appreciate the fact that they weren't completely wasting a valuable natural resource.
Regards
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Post by mrlongbeard1 on Apr 20, 2015 0:32:36 GMT -5
It is to bad the DEC has come to this. From one of the premere agencies in the country. To their presant position of being disrespected by the sports men in this state. They are rarely seen on patrol or making checks on hunters, trappers and fishermen.How they set their seasons are questionable as to why they would want a fisher caught in unprime condition which serves no one.Otters are their Walt Disney featured animals. We'll never see a season in the Fingerlakes.Sending surveys with preselected answers is not looking for an opinion its looking for witch answer they've already choosen do you hate the least. Not what is the best solution for every one including the creature the survey is about.
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Post by hardwoodcharlie on Apr 20, 2015 8:49:27 GMT -5
This is all very hard to make any sense of,why we trappers are not heard or acknowledged is totally mind boggling ...we truly must be viewed as a bunch of knuckle dragging Idiots that have no clue as to what takes place in the field ...after all who else would get up and run at 3:00 am or earlier to check traps in any weather condition before work And do this every day they have traps out,or run traps day light till dark for hundreds of hours a season..but to think that the men and woman that do this year after year That our views hold absolutely no Merritt when compared to the biologist.....but after all I bet they had to receive a fair amount of field hours as an intern before they could get their degree ....must be their hours in the field cancel ours out....I can't help but wonder if they weren't getting paid how many would really care what happens in OUR woods or fields...by no means am I trying to discredit DEC or their biologist but a little acknowlagement and respect for for trappers from their side wouldn't hurt...... Charlie
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Post by jsevering on Apr 20, 2015 12:03:20 GMT -5
same deal twenty years later... its more than likely about grants for dec and cornell... studies, than more studies... you know... science, education... global warming...don't leave any money on the table type deal..
bring back the wolverine... where did i hear that, must of been from the fisher leaning up against the tree using a porcupine quill for a tooth pick at one of the camera capture sites...
in the end they will have no friends, they will of sold them all out with nothing to justify their jobs...just have each other... and what ever society they belong to..
you know they could sit around and evaluate the difference between science and exact science or maybe just the sex life of the tsi fly in the southwest sahara desert...jim
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Post by newfox1 on Apr 20, 2015 12:06:27 GMT -5
I would like to think that in an educated society trappers and biologist could work together toward a common goal.but what do I know?
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Post by jsevering on Apr 20, 2015 12:16:28 GMT -5
"I would like to think that in an educated society trappers and biologist could work together toward a common goal.but what do I know?" ....................................................................................................................
that's common sense... not science... exact or otherwise... but, would seem like the most practical way, why it wasn't considered from the very get go sure is bewildering... jim
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 688
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 20, 2015 12:43:27 GMT -5
I have been a member of the JTI committee since it's inception.Served twenty five years as chairman.I think the reason for my bitterness is that I feel like we have been kicked in the teeth. People I thought to be friends have completely disregarded us. Always, always, always over better than twenty five years JTI and DEC have worked cordially and cooperatiely together to mutually resolve problems.Sure we had disagreements,but we always walked away respecting each other. Not this time!There has been a total disregard for trapper input.No concern for pelt primeness, no concern for rural peoples, no concern for our heritage, no concern for sensible regulatons to protect the fisher and benefit trappers. Every single concern or suggestion by the trappers has been brushed aside.Instead of constructive dialog we are met with continual sarcasm. Certainly the trappers can not be all wrong!Establishment of the seasons they propose is certainly not the wise use of a renewable natural resource!Complete disrgard for the trappers; almost looks lie they are tryng to punish trappers. Without question DEC's wildlfe management is coming from a reactive rather than proactive standpoint and it certainly appears that politics rather than sound biology rules the day.That is why I'm so upset.
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Post by jsevering on Apr 20, 2015 16:27:58 GMT -5
well the trap and placement amendment sure looked like it was punishment... here you choose, if you choose to complain... loose an efficient and humane tool for your raccoon harvest or eat your lower grade fisher pelts, which one you gonna complain about... which one is more important... choose... what do you trap, whats important to you?... they know that... meanwhile forget the fact that body grips with bait and lure are still used now after fisher season, for raccoons or whatever... oh and by the way, we moved it to section so and so within the amendment, so we don't have to go through the process each time, just use an executive order so to speak, to use it where we feel its needed.. above and beyond the other planned baggage this plan intends to saddle you with... funny never read about the body gripper size or placement part to be amended... actually cited in the original plan... they are all over the place and wonder why the outrage and disappointment in the plan... what their doing isn't right, they have to know that... jim
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Post by mikemason on Apr 20, 2015 18:28:41 GMT -5
I knew the gig was up when the commish came out with the fracing ban with no sciene or engineering behind the decision. DEC threw science out the window for political gain.We are playing with the same cast of characters.
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Post by papabear on Apr 20, 2015 19:38:32 GMT -5
Dear Friend,
"Without question DEC's wildlfe management is coming from a reactive rather than proactive standpoint and it certainly appears that politics rather than sound biology rules the day". Mr. paintedpaw
PRESERVATION MENTALITY!!!!!!!!............look but don't touch, that's what is eventually coming. We should be asking NYSDEC, where is the management plan for the "forest preserves" that were placed in their TRUST for all the people of NYS? And to stop hiding behind the "Forever Wild" amendment while they appease the Politicians, the Preservationists and Animal Rights groups!
Regards
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 688
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 20, 2015 19:55:44 GMT -5
The forst preserve was created better than a centuary ago, with good reason at that time.It is long outdated and should be up dated. Unfortunately the preservationits wield much political power and DEC is afraid to broach the subject.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Apr 20, 2015 20:48:45 GMT -5
Sadly enough, if the DEC insists on neglecting trappers & trapping when it comes to issues such as beaver traps, fisher seasons, otter seasons, etc then who am I to care one whit about what they do? From what it appears coming down the pipeline next season, the regs on effective beaver traps will be worse than ever before.
My attitude any more is one of indifference. If other trappers out there opt to game the system and poach fisher from various zones with staggered seasons, etc then what do I care? Go ahead and have at it, won't get any flack from me. Same with guys who reportedly whack and keep otter. I've yet to catch one ever myself, but if the new regs make my 9" bodygrips traps obsolete I'll be switching to magnum #220s for beaver sets in tight channels and crossover locations. Hopefully any otter that wander thru can find their way around those 7" magnum traps, I can no longer be bothered worrying about such things myself.
If the DEC, our elected servants paid by sportsmen dollars treat us, their true employers with indifference, imo tit for tat.
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Post by mrlongbeard1 on Apr 21, 2015 1:45:54 GMT -5
The DEC seems to reflect Comos attitude.
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Post by squash on Apr 21, 2015 7:13:56 GMT -5
Attitudes at the DEC reflect the changing demographics in the country. New personnel, replacing the old guard at the DEC are brainwashed on college campuses to take only pictures and leave only tracks. Those of us who actually get off the trail and take something from nature are considered neanderthals. I once hunted in the high peaks and a granola crunching spandex clad female moron, asked me ," since when did they let hunters in here, ". I replied , "long before they ever let you hikers here, this is a state park not a national park."
I agree with Austin.
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Post by papabear on Apr 21, 2015 8:00:07 GMT -5
"Attitudes at the DEC reflect the changing demographics in the country. New personnel, replacing the old guard at the DEC are brainwashed on college campuses to take only pictures and leave only tracks. Those of us who actually get off the trail and take something from nature are considered neanderthals." squash
Dear Mr. Squash, And to think for all these years I considered myself a fall forest fur farmer, silly me! Not that I have anything against them, but I wonder how many hikers buy a license for the privilege?
Regards
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Post by rendezvous on Apr 21, 2015 8:06:39 GMT -5
Sadly enough, if the DEC insists on neglecting trappers & trapping when it comes to issues such as beaver traps, fisher seasons, otter seasons, etc then who am I to care one whit about what they do? From what it appears coming down the pipeline next season, the regs on effective beaver traps will be worse than ever before. My attitude any more is one of indifference. If other trappers out there opt to game the system and poach fisher from various zones with staggered seasons, etc then what do I care? Go ahead and have at it, won't get any flack from me. Same with guys who reportedly whack and keep otter. I've yet to catch one ever myself, but if the new regs make my 9" bodygrips traps obsolete I'll be switching to magnum #220s for beaver sets in tight channels and crossover locations. Hopefully any otter that wander thru can find their way around those 7" magnum traps, I can no longer be bothered worrying about such things myself. If the DEC, our elected servants paid by sportsmen dollars treat us, their true employers with indifference, imo tit for tat. You encourage/condone breaking the law? I'm sure this does nothing for our image or credibility at the table. I feel abiding the law and fight to change the law is the best way, not quitting and diving into anarchy. As far a not responding to the surveys only encourages the DEC to do as they please, I'd rather see 100% participation, we need to be more pro-active!
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Apr 21, 2015 9:05:37 GMT -5
You encourage/condone breaking the law? I'm sure this does nothing for our image or credibility at the table. I don't encourage anything... the opposite of "care" is "indifference" I no longer care who else does what... why should I? Apparently the DEC doesn't care about NYS trappers best practices, either. So who am I to care any more than they do? As for your proverbial table? Appears to me that trappers lost their seat there some time ago. Maybe sitting out in the other room at the kid's table is all we have at this time.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Apr 21, 2015 9:16:01 GMT -5
I feel abiding the law and fight to change the law is the best way, not quitting ask paintedpaw and rockwood, et el others how that's been working out for us the past few DECADES now. Insanity = repeating the same failed steps while expecting some miraculous newfound success.
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Post by papabear on Apr 21, 2015 10:05:45 GMT -5
"As far a not responding to the surveys only encourages the DEC to do as they please" rendezvous
Dear Mr. Rendezvous, Trappers responding to their manipulated surveys enables the DEC to do as they please!
Regards
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 688
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 21, 2015 10:31:55 GMT -5
A number of years ago a well known New York trapper, Tom Fisher, left New York State and went to New Mexico because he was fed up with the governmental B.S. Boy was he ever right!!!
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Post by rendezvous on Apr 21, 2015 11:19:35 GMT -5
"As far a not responding to the surveys only encourages the DEC to do as they please" rendezvous Dear Mr. Rendezvous, Trappers responding to their manipulated surveys enables the DEC to do as they please! Regards Mr. Shaut, First, after reading many of your posts and had an opportunity to attend one of your demos, thank you. Now, the last survey as posted here, it seem to have pretty straight forward questions to me? Maybe question #7, asking for an "impression", may not be an appropriate scientific question? But nothing jumps out to me? I also said we need to be more pro-active. I don't know if this has been attempted before, but maybe the DEC/Cornell could present objectives of their survey and allow NYSTA to have input on the formation of the questions. If it has been attempted before and failed, we need to continue to achieve more participation. Or maybe even the NYSTA conduct their own survey to answer the DEC/Cornell survey objectives and present it to DEC/Cornell. Either way I still think 100% participation would give us more credibility and influence at the table than... a dysfunctional organization? Respectfully submitted, Bart
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Apr 21, 2015 11:35:46 GMT -5
Maybe we should become a stronger organization and start "requiring" DECon to respond to OUR surveys in order to determine their level of competence before allowing THEM to set rules regulating all matters about which "WE know best." Of course, survey questions would be based on actual field experience, not politically correct fudged-in-advance structured questions, not lies disguised as science, and not influenced by agendas contrary to facts. And while we're at it, they'd need to answer OUR surveys before they could even be hired or appointed. And for that matter, why not go all out and apply it to elected officials... yeah. Right after they Jurassic Park a unicorn. rendezvous, all that a less-than-majority response rate allows the DEC to do is claim that trappers didn't care. In other words, it becomes another bullet in their excuse-ammo belt. Whether 100% or 0%, the results will be the same, at which point it stands to reason that since the results are the same, isn't it insanity to have wasted the time and effort? About the only reason I might've sent mine back, blank, is to have them incur the postage but in the end WE pay that, so... you get 3-guesses regarding my decision.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Apr 21, 2015 12:00:25 GMT -5
. I don't know if this has been attempted before, but maybe the DEC/Cornell could present objectives of their survey and allow NYSTA to have input on the formation of the questions. If it has been attempted before and failed, we need to continue to achieve more participation. Or maybe even the NYSTA conduct their own survey to answer the DEC/Cornell survey objectives and present it to DEC/Cornell. Either way I still think 100% participation would give us more credibility and influence at the table than... a dysfunctional organization? Respectfully submitted, Bart therein lies the problem at its core... everything has been attempted from our end before, and we're talking decades now. What exactly has the DEC compromised on with NYSTA & trappers since 1995? A bogus early bobcat season in a few random WMAs? What else? can we set at or within 5' of muskrat houses? No colony traps? No cable restraints use? No unfettered 6" or larger bodygrip traps on land? No otter seasons where they were open traditionally and/or elsewhere in the southern hemisphere? No bodygrip traps usage for beaver unfettered? No Could go on and on about restrictions imposed while favorable changes to trappers ignored. All take, no give, one-way relationship in the negotiations for as long as I can recall. After while, eventually you tire of going unheard and ignored when it's supposed to be a working relationship negotiated. Then you pack up, step away from the table and let the other side fend for themselves. If the DEC wants to protect fisher, otter, etc so badly that they refuse any input from us, have at it. They can enact all the laws they want and good luck with that if all trappers are not on board.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 688
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 21, 2015 13:43:15 GMT -5
Austin, your last post says it all! I'm now at the point that you speak of.After years of dealing withnthese guys I have had enough. I have aingslways prided myself as being a law abiding conservationist.Never have had a hunting, trapping, or fishing ticket and turned myself inside out to meet the law.For years I've attended meetings all over the state, and I now say "for what"? Talk about a one way street! I simply have to point to the absolute failures on the part of DEC with the otter closures and the perceived fisher decline in the Adirondacks. The arrogance,condescending attitude, and refusal to listen is indicative of what we are up against. Instead of doing something constructive they choose to make smart ass remarks. Trappers know nothing, we are the experts! I will say that I know quite a few ECO's from when I worked on Lake George and inspite of what the biologists will tell you, the ECO's do not favor the fisher plan. I really got an eye full when I participated in the BMP plan trapping. The lack of trapping know how was over whelming. Pretty sad to have to show these experts what an otter toilet is. Pretty sad when they peer over the side of a bridge looking for otter tracks. While I'm at it does anyone remember when DEC hired some bird to sneak around the southern tier checking on offset trigger compliance? Trapper's friends? Not hardly. P.S. Mr Rendezvous, The JTI committee did indeed conduct it's own survey. The results indeed were given to DEC. A number of the answers were the opposite of the Cornell/ DEC survey and DEC choose to ignore it as well as to ignore the trappers overall.
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