austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 31, 2015 10:31:29 GMT -5
To my understanding, otters are present to some degree in every WMU across the state. No reason why they wouldn't be, and field observations by many hunters, fishers and trappers the past two years have all reported a marked increase in otter sign and activity across this general region here. I have a couple of theories why such a sudden surge in otter sign = numbers became present, but we'll leave personal theories for another time & place.
proratman noted the pending PA season ahead. Flatiron noted talk of a 1-animal permit to start. That all sounds like a good beginning to me. As noted in a different thread, I was present this fall when another trapper found a big male otter drowned in a muskrat feedbed set held fast by a #1.5 coil. I got to handle the specimen while he waited for DEC to arrive and take possession. It was a really nice male otter, his first and if indeed trappers were issued one permit this season, he could have kept that for a tanned specimen the rest of his life. Instead, the otter went wherever such go within DEC channels.
I personally see fresh otter sign in every drainage around here. Had six muskrats eaten out of traps by otter in two different local watersheds. A family of four pups were reared in a nearby pond on Hi-Tor stateland this summer, DEC was well aware of their presence. Many locals observed them, I saw pictures of the group myself.
No shortage of otters here in this general area right now.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 31, 2015 10:42:31 GMT -5
TMC, no one disputes what you are saying. But how can change happen unless we become proactive? Where is the end of trap restrictions for the sake of sacred otter that forsakes all else?
As it is, beaver-sized bodygrips are rendered ineffective for ideal catch & dispatch of the intended target species. Now there is talk of expanding those restrictions to smaller traps as well. Where does it end? No 7" bodygrips traps in the water? No 6" bodygrip traps in the water?
I personally dropped all 7" single-spring bodygrip traps from muskrat use because occasionally an otter would get caught and power out of the trap. I use 6" single-spring bodygrip traps for muskrats now and I use Duke brand with the thinnest gauge bars of all model traps in part so that accidental otter will power out and release themselves, which they do.
Someone who follows trapping in this forum on another thread spoke about spitefulness and posting such commentary here. If I myself had intentions to purposely kill otter rather than avoid them, I could easily saturate all local flows with 7" dual spring bodygrip traps set for muskrats and mink. The result of that would be piles of dead otter by season's end. The DEC is powerless to stop that and have no control over such. We trappers voluntarily choose to take every measure prudent to comply with otter avoidance. But at some point the regulation restrictions go too far, and then everyone has problems.
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Jan 31, 2015 11:01:36 GMT -5
Unfortunately, politics , and not scientific wildlife management, dictates what we are allowed to do! By some, otters are seen as cute and cuddly, and by others as a triumph of visions of times past! Those same political contributors are against harvesting otters as they put too much time and effort onto the reintroduction program only to have them trapped and/or eliminated, again! As as for your comment, Austin about the higher echelon of the DEC reading what goes on on this board, yep, they do! I know that for a fact! They probably point at the screen, start LOL and call others into the room: "HEY!! Come and have a look!! They are talking about trapping otters again! HAHAHAHA. Let's tell them we'll have a lottery. $50 to apply and $100 if they get drawn!!"
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Post by rendezvous on Jan 31, 2015 13:19:20 GMT -5
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Post by kirkwooder on Jan 31, 2015 14:46:26 GMT -5
First off let me say, I know very little about otter trapping and only slightly more about beaver trapping. I do know, however, that there have been otter in the Cohocton River since the early 1990's. I remember seeing a pair of them in the upper river while still working nights, and trapping the river during daylight hours. The last time I worked night shift anywhere was in 1994, so the otters that I saw predated the 1995 "start" date of the releases mentioned. I obviously have no idea where they came from, but do certainly know what they were. Before that the river was full of muskrats and huge Carp. Ever since there has been more and more otter sightings and lot's of sign everywhere. I have no evidence to link the two, other than my own observations, but it seems that the more otter and otter sign that are present the less muskrat seem to be in the river. Even the ever abundant carp seem to be few and far between any more. I can remember taking my bow or a spear to the river in early September and filling a feed sack with monster carp, to be made into coon bait, within a few hours. Now, in the same stretches of river, it may take that same amount of time to find a sizable carp. The very upper reaches of the tributaries used to be full of nice brook trout too, They seem to be affected as well, though not not the same degree. There are several studies being done to try and find out whats happening to our rat populations, is it really that difficult to put the pieces together.
I think that the plain truth is that otters are here, and certainly in sustainably harvestable numbers. It's time to put man back into the equation of the ecosystem. Man is the apex predator in every ecosystem where he resides. To remove that aspect of the ecosystem for political reasons makes no sense and is certainly not healthy for the ecosystem.
Just my $.02. Not that it matters.....
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 31, 2015 15:44:53 GMT -5
"Very little research or follow up has been conducted on these 278 animals. The cash-strapped, state Department of Environmental Conservation in recent years has found it difficult to send staff afield with the sophisticated monitoring devices needed..." that opening paragraph struck me as odd. Do y'all remember about a year ago when your Governor Cuomo proposed lowering sportsman license fees and including trapping as a free bonus to hunting licenses? Everyone remember that? Do you all remember the stated reason why this proposal was made? Your governor himself said the NYS coffers for these funds were too full... there was too much money in those accounts, so let's lower license fees and attract more people to outdoor sports. So if indeed Gov Cuomo was telling the truth, and why wouldn't he be, have the DEC get in touch with him to release those funds and speed up this otter study. Earmark a few hundred thousand or a million or whatever is necessary to spend for facilitating the otter trapping season decisions by start of 2015/16 license year. How simple is that? Even I can figure those logistics out, based on what the politicians have told us all.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Jan 31, 2015 17:33:47 GMT -5
Yup, that was my point in one respect, Austin. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just adding a facet to the argument, a different angle if you will; a trapper's analogy might be that I added a baseplate or changed-out the swivel and chain. I'd never suggest quitting or throwing in the towel (I know that's not what you were inferring from my post, just sayin'), I'm suggesting that you may best fight it if you don't abide by the arcane "rules" that the committee called "they" have arbitrarily established. And fight it on many fronts. And, never be distracted by the bait they throw out to us. Learn from them, sure, but don't follow the script they've written. Divide and conquer, same as they apply to us. Instead of attacking the red herrings they release, attack their foundation; they've been hammering at ours and it's been giving way for a long time without us shoring it up at all because they've got us too busy putting out fires so we can't replant the trees. And the "they" to whom I'm referring? Not the DEC. Not the true statesmen. But the politicians, the power-hungry ones with an agenda that does not serve us, their employers. Their BOSS.
Everyone has two tongues, This much is true; One in their mouth, One in their shoe. The one is to make noise, The other to do - If they don't both agree, You know which to choose.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Jan 31, 2015 17:52:12 GMT -5
Hold everything folks. I attended thw Sportsmen Education seminar today in Ballston Spa. The trapping segment was made up by discussion of the soon to be released fisher management plan. At that time I will have plenty to say!!! There are also management plans for public comment coming out for Bald Eagles and Mute Swans. Gordon Batcheller informed us that the next plan will be on Pine Marten, before they get to the otters, and by their own admission that plan will be difficult. I'm not sure just how long, roughly 17 years since DEC closed the otter seasons in the Catskills and Mohawk Valley. Some of the reintroduction otters came from the now closed areas. The lack of movement on the part of DEC to reopen the season is a real black eye to DEC. A true disgrace!!!We have seen more d@mn excuses, unfullfilled agreements, wacky so called inhabitant studies, college studies for biologists, and always another excuse.There are also rumors wheter private influences have affected if there will be an open otter season in western New York. DEC is establishing a quota in the newly to be open areas for fisher in spite of NYSTA opposition. This sets a dangerous precedent to the future: look out otters!!!
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Jan 31, 2015 17:55:24 GMT -5
I forgot to say - No matter what they respond with, ignore it if it doesn't conform to the end you're pursuing. Don't respond to it. Don't answer a question that has no merit. Don't attack a shadow or a mirror. Don't allow them to lead you. Don't bite down on "regulations" et al and chew the livin' crap outta them about how nonsensical they are, what's the basis for that piece of legislation, etc. I think that our NYSTA rep's are in the best position, sure, but not the only force that should be pressing against the nonsense. What you're suggesting is fine, I'm just addressing the other aspects. It's like this... My family, including me, are "sunset-aholics." Absolutely in love with sunsets! We can't stand experiencing them alone, either; the call of "SUNSET!!!" in any season is a claxon that inspires us to rush to the call. Anyways, many many years ago, when I was maybe 12 or 13, while viewing one particularly magnificent sunset with family in late July, I wheeled around to avoid getting struck in the eye by a speeding horsefly. In doing so I lost my balance and found myself one my hands and knees, looking east... and I had an epiphany. The east was just as beautiful, not as glorious by any means but nevertheless gorgeous... more subdued, requiring a more discriminating appreciation... and then I looked north, and south, and each had it's own beauty. Ever since, I look east at sunset as well as west. This carried over to trapping, hunting, work, business, financing, investing -- not everything is as it appears to be, and there's more to just about everything than meets the eye, or more to the point, that which catches the eye. I'm not sure that I'm getting it across right. Just don't play by the script they've written. It's usually David & Goliath, for sure, but I like to remember that David won. And, what most people miss about that story, including most preachers and theologians, is the "WHY" behind David's WHAT: As he walked the Israelite encampment, he not only heard fearful murmurings of the giant, Goliath, but also something more, something that captured his attention and, even more importantly, his heart; three times he asked that it be repeated to him: "Tell me again, WHAT does the one who kills Goliath get?" "He gets to marry the King's daughter, live in the palace, and his family never again has to pay taxes..." You know your purpose. Of course it helps to explain the problem, to get others to see your vision, and to influence them in the right direction... but your WHY behind your what is what will keep you from taking the bait, from becoming distracted. And that's what's going to inspire the right kind of changes. Me? I lack most of that. I'm like a male gynecologist: He knows all about those parts and how they work, even though he doesn't have any of his own.
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Post by trappermac on Jan 31, 2015 18:24:56 GMT -5
In my opinion it seems the otters are isolated to pockets, not widespread across the southern tier. Outside of some beaver trapping and limited muskrat trapping my time on the water is largely due to being an avid trout flyfisherman and canoeist/kayaker. I spend a lot of time in the rivers and streams and lakes of the western southern tier and my otter sightings/sign has been very limited. I call the Wiscoy and East koy and Clear Creek my home streams, I’m on one or the other 2-3 evenings after work during the summer and have not seen an otter or sign. The Genesee I fish above Belmont and have seen one there in 10 times/year fishing it, I canoe and kayak it spring and early summer from Canadea to Letchworth and have not seen one or sign. Hanging Bog is 20 minutes from me and I’ve seen their sign there a couple times and the DC confirms they are established there. Steelhead fishing the Catt. I have never seen one. I could go on but suffice it to say my sightings have been limited out this way, very limited considering the time I spend on waters in the area.
Now we make an average of three trips/year to the Dacks to canoe camp and we see otters every darn time, we’ve had family groups of 5 or 6 swim alongside our canoe and generally see them in every water we go into. I fish the Ausable and always have sightings there. I can guarantee that if I canoe the Moose River from just below Inlet down to Old Forge I’ll see at least 2 family groups. So I somewhat assume that they are active enough during daylight hours and not overly shy of humans that if they were populated on the waters near home I’d see them.
That being said, my opinion is opposite of others who believe they are everywhere… I believe they are actually scarce and have taken to waters down here “in my area” to the extent that they will take to them. It just may not be conducive to otter propagation across all areas. To keep the regs as they are for beaver in the hopes that a trapper won’t catch the scarce otter that may come along is senseless. I follow the regs even with my Duke 330’s. I took 7 beaver this fall/winter in 330’s, of those 7 beaver 3 were hip catches (two of them clearly struggled for quite a while, one was alive), one tail catch and had only one suitcased, my largest catch. It bothers me to see what should be a humane trap not be humane. These beaver suffer in a “killer” trap to avoid the ghost otter. The couple beaver I took in footholds on a drowner expired faster than the ones in my “humane killer “ traps…due to the trigger regs and the ghost otter.
To think that it will now take a study (Christ…how many years long will that be once they actually even start it) and then a few areas opened up with a limit of an otter or two, and all this time I got to put beaver thru hell in my humane traps is ridiculus.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 31, 2015 18:40:09 GMT -5
mac, I set a few traps in the Silver Lake outlet on that private stretch from Silver Springs rd west/north (not sure which) to the next road over on both sides. It crosses 39 and become Middle Reservation rd down to Letchworth, cant think of the name but it has water on both sides. Come to find out it's carved up about five different ways in ownership, and the best chunk is owned by a trapper who stopped by to enlighten me on that.
Anyways, whole stretch there is loaded with otter sign. Suckerbrook on the opposite end of Silver Lake had otter sign, too. So did the creek drainage that flows along Old State rd from Rt 19 Pavilion to Rt 36 Leicester.
btw I grew up fishing East koy and Wiscoy creeks with my uncle who introduced me to trapping. He was an avid stream fisherman and those two creeks were frequent haunts of ours. Caught many native browns out of both, some 20+" specimens back in the day. All released, we never kept any natives.
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Post by jsevering on Feb 1, 2015 9:01:31 GMT -5
a good portion of the pa seasons that are proposed are right across from... where the former catskill regions traditional established no limit, full season nys otter season or our portion of the state, use to enjoy an otter season. a stupidly short season with a one otter limit is like playing baseball, you know bring the ball bag to the field, but leave your bat at home.... by the way were having a fund raiser to by the other team a bat.... want to contribute...
the way i look at it we here in the catskill and mohawk river region have been contributing for way longer than was promised, how about working on getting our full former traditional seasons back before you all go and settle for something no one here ever wanted... wants or ever agreed to at least here... jim
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Feb 1, 2015 12:34:53 GMT -5
I was involved with the restoration program from planning meetings in Oneida County to the trigger testing at Hales Creek research station near Johnstown. I have never liked the trigger regulation because of the frequent hip catches on beaver. I find this to be inhumane and unnecessary, but I've always been blown off with my objections.Now DEC is considering the size on that reg to include 280's. As for the closure of the Catskills and Mohawk Valleys, they should have never been closed in the first place.Some sections of the state will naturally never hold otters, but parts of those areas produced some of the reintroduction animals.The biologist that shut those areas down is now retired, as is some of the biologists behind the trigger regulation. I'm an Adirondack trapper, so I really can not comment on otter populations in the southern tier and western New York.I feel that trappers from those areas as well as the areas that were closed should be the ones with the primary input and DEC should listen to them. I do hope that the Management Plan whenever they get to it should be based upon sound biological science and not based upon politics, trapper convenience,some grad students opinions, or some half baked trapper survey of theirs.Welfare of the species, based upon sound science should be the bottom line.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Feb 1, 2015 12:58:12 GMT -5
I was involved with the restoration program from planning meetings in Oneida County to the trigger testing at Hales Creek research station near Johnstown. I have never liked the trigger regulation because of the frequent hip catches on beaver. I find this to be inhumane and unnecessary, but I've always been blown off with my objections.Now DEC is considering the size on that reg to include 280's. this is what I mean by where does the extreme stupidity end? Pushing triggers to the side of an 8.5" trap makes a 7" or smaller true gap from triggers to opposite frame. Anyone with a smattering of trapper knowledge knows any adult otter is not going to consistently swim thru that narrow window unscathed. The result will be head-caught beaver and hip-caught otter... most of them dead after they blow the place up, or break chains and take the trap into depths before dying unrecovered. if the DEC is that stupid to trigger reg 8.5" traps then it proves beyond shadow of doubt they are just trying to placate political emotions and have lost all touch with reality afield. Like I said before, at some point they are powerless to control any further, and hence pushing on the end of a string. This would be one of those points, for sure.
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Post by bill1960 on Feb 1, 2015 12:59:03 GMT -5
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Feb 1, 2015 13:47:11 GMT -5
read those yesterday
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Post by jsevering on Feb 1, 2015 14:02:36 GMT -5
all i know is its the same old same old... promise studies... shut everyone up for a year or two.... then promise more studies, that are never forthcoming, hell they even got studies on river otters in long island now ... lol... they more than likely have studies on the studies of the studies before the studies, that they didn't have when they shut down the existing traditional seasons... but try to find one that pertains to trapping with any kind of open discussion admitting the true reason we were shut down here... kind of interesting some of the same people involved with the fisher more or less, expressed their interest in it, you know the fisher study that's taken place, heard denis money was all for it... problem is their plan has never changed from the start, now they claim they have to address the fisher and pine marten seasons, before what was suppose to be such a priority takes place ... give me a break, their plan has never changed, they have plenty of studies... just no results for the end users... or what was so kindly referred to as a stock holder at the time of the theft, you know the soccer mom with her arms full and at least two kids holding on for dear life with only ten minutes in her day to spare looking down from the bridge wanting to watch the playful cute little river otters... its a joke... the reason for the studies is pure and simple... for more studies... bet the fisher conversations are going the same way as the ones on the otters did, one sided... don't need any crystal ball to see that...maybe they should have a study on that, they could call it stop pissing down my leg and telling me its raining... jim
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Post by walleyed on Feb 1, 2015 14:11:00 GMT -5
Someone who follows trapping in this forum on another thread spoke about spitefulness and posting such commentary here. If I myself had intentions to purposely kill otter rather than avoid them, I could easily saturate all local flows with 7" dual spring bodygrip traps set for muskrats and mink. The result of that would be piles of dead otter by season's end. The DEC is powerless to stop that and have no control over such. Sounds like we've got a proverbial LOOSE CANNON running amok on this thread. Hopefully, the DEC Bureau of Wildlife will be able to differentiate between this Radical Fringe Trapper bent on mayhem and conflict with our State Wildlife Agency and the rest of us within the Rank and File NYSTA membership and realize that the OP does not speak for the majority of us with this Divisive Rhetoric as it serves no useful purpose and only serves to poison the Atmosphere between New York State Trappers and the DEC Bureau of Wildlife. Walleyed******** ******Posted from the Beaver Princesse's I-Pad as my computer will not allow me to log-in on the ITRAPNY forum
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Post by jsevering on Feb 1, 2015 14:42:57 GMT -5
walleyed ... the loose cannon has been promised things from twenty years ago that have never came to be... you lose what you once had and cared about and at that time depended on, then see what your reaction is promise after broken promise.... i never spitefully talked about taking illegal otters or not avoiding them, go back and read... when people were talking about duke 330's... i was the one who said why poke the man in his eye with a stick... i been taking the hit here legally for your information... if you think im wrong, that's your right never mentioned or called on nysta in this thread... although im a life member.... but i purely speak for myself and not nysta and i think andy and scott and most of the others, who actually know what im talking about would agree...if you dont like it ... oh well, my feelings are truly hurt... i wont type anymore, said my piece so have at it mr self appointed reputed nysta mouth piece... jim
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Feb 1, 2015 15:17:48 GMT -5
walleyed, don't try to twist the spirit of my words into your own dramatic rhetoric. I was simply pointing out the fact that if any trapper wanted to wreak purposeful havoc on otters, there ain't a d@mn thing anyone else can do about it. and I specifically pointed out the steps I've taken on my line to minimize otter conflicts, such as no #210s at this time, only Duke #160 single springs because of light-gauge bars easiest to bend, etc. But you purposely edited that part out, because it quelled the drama factor for ya
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Post by walleyed on Feb 1, 2015 17:47:23 GMT -5
walleyed ... the loose cannon has been promised things from twenty years ago that have never came to be... you lose what you once had and cared about and at that time depended on, then see what your reaction is promise after broken promise.... i never spitefully talked about taking illegal otters or not avoiding them, go back and read... when people were talking about duke 330's... i was the one who said why poke the man in his eye with a stick... i been taking the hit here legally for your information... if you think im wrong, that's your right never mentioned or called on nysta in this thread... although im a life member.... but i purely speak for myself and not nysta and i think andy and scott and most of the others, who actually know what im talking about would agree...if you dont like it ... oh well, my feelings are truly hurt... i wont type anymore, said my piece so have at it mr self appointed reputed nysta mouth piece... jim Jim, Sorry to have hurt your feeling on this thread, but you are not the loose cannon I was refering to. I was talking about somebody else. Walleyed
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Feb 1, 2015 18:17:54 GMT -5
Went to Walmart, didya?
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Post by jsevering on Feb 1, 2015 20:10:58 GMT -5
no problem here... sorry for my harsh words also... sore subject, i take everything the wrong way when otters are brought up anymore... use to love talking anything otter... anymore its just a bitter pill and im sorry for that also, i should of had enough common sense to avoid even posting in the first place... jim
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Feb 1, 2015 21:48:51 GMT -5
no problem here... sorry for my harsh words also... sore subject, i take everything the wrong way when otters are brought up anymore... use to love talking anything otter... anymore its just a bitter pill and im sorry for that also, i should of had enough common sense to avoid even posting in the first place... jim Jim, I have always like hearing/reading your opinion of a wide variety of topics related to trapping/NYS etc... Back to the "Flagging for fisher" and "Fox Den" days
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Post by minkwaders on Feb 2, 2015 0:36:34 GMT -5
If they opened a southern otter season they would be trapped to extinction within a few years. i watched two otters all summer then they were trapped by a 280 and i am sure they were nt reported to the DEC.
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