austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 30, 2015 19:21:07 GMT -5
How about sharing a meaningful discussion in a topic of interest to NYS trappers when it pertains to river otters?
I have some serious questions that maybe others know the answer to. What year did the reintroduction program begin, and what year did it end?
In other words, how many years => decades now have otter been present in the southern zone due to a combination of relocation release and as importantly, natural expansion from the Adirondacks - Catskill regions, eastern migration along the Lake Erie shores and up from Pennsylvania watersheds?
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Post by Dave Morse on Jan 30, 2015 20:02:49 GMT -5
Project started around 1995 I think, not sure how long it took, political complications still have the otter protected. If anyone wants to see otter sign its very common now but , but just in the last few years here imo. Not sure I have logged enough stream hours to have an opinion though.If you really want to know about the relocation a Google search turned up a few good articles.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 30, 2015 20:15:01 GMT -5
well, if walleyed would fricken spend $199 at WalMart for a good laptop, he'd be on here doing all this research for me. But since he's such a cheap-as they come trapper, I took your advice Dave and looked myself
Years 1995 - 2000, 279 otters relocated. That along with natural emigration from PA with their successful reintroduction and natural migration from all points of the compass into western NY, quite frankly leads us to the existing population today.
So now here it is, fifteen long years after the last release and twenty long years past the first. That's a lot of time given to breed, reproduce and populate all of western NY, then to now.
At what point do we NYS trappers start seriously discussing some sort of open trapping season for this decades' established furbearer population?
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Post by Dave Morse on Jan 30, 2015 20:21:33 GMT -5
Rg&e might hold things up indefinitely.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 30, 2015 20:34:23 GMT -5
why? How does a private entity dictate wildlife policy across the state for tax-paying, license purchasing sportsmen & women? Today's established otter population spreads across myriad public land WMAs and private lands owned by tax-paying individuals... into the domain of NYSEG and other utilities, for that matter.
What does some private company and their volunteer seed money to foster part of a population growth have to do with sensible management of a furbearer animal no different than a bobcat or a fisher?
Am I the only licensed trapper here in NY who finds that suggestion unacceptable?
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 30, 2015 20:38:32 GMT -5
it's been said that DEC decision makers monitor this board. That's good, I'm all for openness and communication from our boots in the field to policy decisions at the top. As a lifetime sportsman and purchaser of every license & tag offered for sale in NY most of my active life, I'd really like to know what are the current plans in place for a sustainable harvest of otter in the southern zone.
That to me seems a very reasonable question to ask. I'd respectfully suggest many other men just like me want to hear less about trap restrictions and more about increased opportunity for us to utilize a renewable resource in our local presence.
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Post by Itrapny on Jan 30, 2015 20:48:09 GMT -5
The DEC will start working on the otter management plan within the next few months after the fisher management plan is finalized. It will probably take at least 2+ years from now before we see if there will be any new or reopened areas for otter harvest in NY.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 30, 2015 20:50:37 GMT -5
ok... that sounds good. after twenty years since inception, it's nice to know there is actual progress towards utilization instead of endless protectionism
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Post by Dave Morse on Jan 30, 2015 21:06:17 GMT -5
The life expectancy is only 14 years so some of those first otters have died of old age, 2.5 otters per litter per year avg. Half of the 279 female ? 140 female could produce 350 otter that first year of the program plus the origional 279== 629 otter starting year two again assume half female .315 otter female the second season produce =787 otter. I realize that those #, s are not accurate but you can understand how they have populated the fingerlakes area so rapidly, The state of Pennsylvania released 500 otter also.
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Post by proratman on Jan 30, 2015 21:37:02 GMT -5
Pennsylvania is in the process of opening up two wildlife zones in the northeast part of their state for the 2015-2016 season for otter. If approved it would be a three day season using five traps and a limit of one otter.
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Post by flatiron on Jan 30, 2015 22:21:21 GMT -5
And as I hear it will be a ONE otter limit here too.
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Post by bobsamuelson on Jan 31, 2015 0:06:23 GMT -5
As I have stated before on here, RG&E was fined by the DEC in the late '90's for pollution violations at its Russell Station power plant. Basically, it didn't meet current emission standards! The fine was in excess of $500,000. In exchange of paying the fine, RG&E offered up several thousand acres of land south of the airport, between Brook Road and Scottsville Road, ( which is now regulated by the Genesee valley conservation alliance) and contributed several hundred thousand dollars to the otter restoration project!
When the otter project was initially proposed, trappers were promised that if we helped with the project, we would have an otter season within 5 years! When asked, we were assured that there would be no impact on our beaver trapping!
To date, no one has any idea how many of the released otters survived nor how successful they were at propagating! It is my humble opinion that because of the monetary contribution that RG&E made, they have dictated anything related to the otters!
I know that a study has been done on estimating the population but I don't see an otter season in my lifetime! Too much politics and not enough science has determined wildlife management in this issue!
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 31, 2015 5:29:05 GMT -5
I know all about the RG&E monetary input. But let's all keep in mind it was not a volunteer donation for a heartfelt cause they were passionate about. It was a settlement of a freakin' penalty, a fine. So there was no monetary "contribution" because they did not volunteer any funds. The DEC wrenched that money out of RG&E coffers no different than writing each of us one ticket for game violations that we would all pay.
If the DEC wrote each of us a ticket based on game law violations for non-compliance of otter traps and 2,000 of us paid our $250 fine (not to mention $100+ state surcharge on top), does that then give us dictatorial power over otter trapping regulations? It's the same-exact d@mn thing. They paid fines for violations in reality, we paid fines in hypothetical fashion per the equation above. Now how does that give anyone power over season / regulation decisions?
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 31, 2015 5:37:39 GMT -5
I don't know about anyone else in the closed-otter sections of NY but I've heard enough about restrictive regulations and mandatory dysfunction of BMPs for bodygrip traps set for beavers targeted. As I said in a different thread, to my knowledge there were four otters caught in muskrat sets on feedbeds this season by four different men in four different counties. Three of those otter were doa, turned over to the DEC and who knows what became of them from there?
If enough otter exist out there right now, twenty full years after reintroduction efforts began, coupled with natural immigration from all points of the compass into NYS to wind up in shallow water muskrat feedbeds (where no "rough fish" as prey exist) then in many people's opinions there is ample population to support some degree of controlled legal harvest.
So now it's time to shelve the DEC talk about restricting our beaver regs one iota more, and time to start hearing about relaxing the current existing restrictions if not rescinding them altogether.
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wcs
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Post by wcs on Jan 31, 2015 7:41:58 GMT -5
Region 3 is in the southern zone and we have a season. Lots of otters down here
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Post by bobsamuelson on Jan 31, 2015 7:51:11 GMT -5
Unfortunately, politics , and not scientific wildlife management, dictates what we are allowed to do! By some, otters are seen as cute and cuddly, and by others as a triumph of visions of times past! Those same political contributors are against harvesting otters as they put too much time and effort onto the reintroduction program only to have them trapped and/or eliminated, again!
As as for your comment, Austin about the higher echelon of the DEC reading what goes on on this board, yep, they do! I know that for a fact!
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 31, 2015 8:16:50 GMT -5
bob, I agree that all NYS furbearers can and certainly are viewed as cute & cuddly by some. I don't know that any one critter is held to higher "cuteness" esteem than others, that's certainly falls into the emotional whims of each individual.
as for time, effort and money spent reintroducing otters, job well done! just like the same program verbatim for wild turkeys here in NY, mission accomplished. Literally tens of thousands NYS sportsmen & women have enjoyed the benefits of sensible, sustained harvest on wild turkeys from those efforts, and Godspeed the same benefits to NYS sportsmen as it pertains to the scientific harvest of river otters, too.
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I'm glad to hear that upper levels of DEC and/or legislative members are present here to objectively absorb the facts. After all, any government entity is a servant of the people in this country. If I were in their position of earning a salary paid for by the taxpayers & license purchasers whom I served, I'd surely do all I could to stay plugged in at a grassroots level myself.
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Post by Dave Morse on Jan 31, 2015 8:18:34 GMT -5
Well maybe they will chime in then if they moniter this board, not sure why they would w a ste time monitoring our board but, I wonder if there is any truth that otters were targeted in the southerntier illegally a few seasons back and several dz were caught and reported as being caught elsewhere. Its been rumored and was wondering if theres any truth to it?
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Post by Dave Morse on Jan 31, 2015 8:21:05 GMT -5
?
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 31, 2015 8:30:39 GMT -5
Now I have a question about BMPs... that worldwide program of best management practices which American trappers in general and NYS trappers included were and are subjected to.
To my knowledge, it was determined that BMPs for any aquatic species when it pertains to bodygrip traps dictate said traps being set for target species in a way that jaws strike the head/neck region of targeted catches for quickest possible dispatch in humane fashion. Am I right about that? I know some active board members here were firsthand participants in that program, so please correct me if I'm wrong... or confirm if I'm right.
With that understood, how do the current trigger restrictions in place for large bodygrip traps targeting beaver comply? Everyone who traps beaver with large bodygrip-trap triggers aligned for otter "avoidance" has the experiences of medium and small beavers, actual targeted species, caught between trap jaws across the hips, hindquarters or tail.
That is a reality in the field due solely to adverse manipulation of trap triggers for ideal catch & hold on targeted species. Those adversely held catches of smaller beavers are not quickly and humanely dispatched due solely to mandated trigger placement. Some of us comply by using bodygrip traps suitable for beaver that fall outside of the current regulations. Our sole desire is to set traps in a configuration where our targeted species are caught, dispatched and held in the best practice possible.
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Unfortunately for all involved, natural mortality of incidental otter catches is unavoidable. The annual numbers will obviously vary due to trapper activity and population numbers at any given time. Otters will be caught and some will be killed in muskrat traps, mink traps, raccoon traps and beaver traps of all descript. That's simply how it is, no one can change the truth.
To what end can possible trap restrictions extend before imposition on the legal, ethical, BMP trapping of other water-animal species be too far infringed?
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Post by snowrd on Jan 31, 2015 8:42:28 GMT -5
This is an issue that I have ignored due to it being easier with my head in the sand, and little sign of otter in the area's I trapped. However this year there was not a water shed that I trapped that I didn't find otter sign, and a lot of it. From what I have seen this fall/winter in southern Schoharie and northern Delaware county the otter population is alive and doing very well.
With that said I would be shocked to ever see an otter season open in my area.
Kevin Hitt Jefferson NY
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Post by herm on Jan 31, 2015 9:13:14 GMT -5
Until last year I always gave the DEC some benifit of dought on the trigger regulations and there adverse effects on beavers do to the politics involved. Then they went after the body grips that the regs did not effect by tightening the regs up even more so that trappers that wanted to use a humane body grip for beaver lost that option. By the way, to add to the information about the otters, they were here in Wayne County in the early 1980s.
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Post by Dave Morse on Jan 31, 2015 9:13:24 GMT -5
Wow I just looked at the otter trapping map, I didn, t relize how much of the state was closed to otter trapping. Are the otter present in most or all of the closed wmu, s?
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Jan 31, 2015 10:24:32 GMT -5
I, too have been refraining from commenting on this subject, but only for one reason: I didn't want to try to explain that I'm not trying to make light of a very serious issue... But here's my take on it: The whole premise of the question(s) is -- bogus. Hear me out, that's not anything personal, it's just that you're trying to make sense of something that is senseless, hence the emotion of it making it a HOT topic. I see it in the same regard as I do "gun control," NYSAFE Act, Affordable Care Act, or other issues whose stated purpose is nothing more than a lie to begin with. That's all. The DEC can monitor this, agree with this, and try to work with what we say, but as stated above they don't make the laws. They're stuck working with what's shoved down their, and our, throats by the oligarchy in Albany. Good points all, but - blue on black, tears on a river, push on a shove, it don't mean much... joker on jack, match on a fire, cold on ice, a dead man's touch... whisper on a scream, doesn't change a thing --- yeah, good song for it! OK, "flame on!"
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Post by snowrd on Jan 31, 2015 10:28:36 GMT -5
The biggest problem that I see is the way DEC rolls out any changes to regulations. They do there study then put it out for public opinion. If DEC has experts that have studied something and have determined that a change should be made why in the world would you put it out to the public to decide if a change is warrented? This idea is crazy to me.
Kevin Hitt Jefferson NY
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