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Post by jsevering on Feb 16, 2012 9:38:07 GMT -5
is that pondering and bored... either way... was doing some research on lure ingredients, time of year type studies.... bill isn't so forth coming as a mentor... makes you work some, nothing wrong with that, has never sent me in the wrong direction yet, where im totally lost, but at the same time was sort of having a discussion with brunner on late season dispersal routes and lure usage... in a kinda related way... particularly late season and the travel corridor... not particularly the rest area with indoor plumbing but the actual corridor, anyhow it was getting pretty interesting... more vrs less.. this and that type deal came across this in part of the intro to one ingredient study and figured it would make a good topic to toss around... lots of variables, etc... know not everyone will agree with the intro of the study word for word or even if any of this makes an ant hill of difference in the long run... but figured some thoughts and theories on the subject would be fun to toss around between each other... jim
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Post by mole on Feb 16, 2012 14:57:06 GMT -5
Hello , after reading that, it made complete sense to me. I am no way a lure expert but I do find it interesting. Been reading about loveage, and what it does and what reactions you might expect. I read that it can magnify castor . and it really is not a passion ingrediant as one might expect.. Cat nip, over the years we have had several house cats, some found cat nip to be very attractive while others had no interest in it at all. Is this the same in canine lures, cat lures. ??
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Post by jsevering on Feb 16, 2012 16:05:47 GMT -5
were in the same boat ed... definitely no expert here either, i imagine to a certain point with the catnip its the same with canines and certain ingredients and times...
heck the best, passionate ingredient i ever found was the hay chaff from under the girls pen when the time was right...
know asafoetida, loveage and one or two other ingredients are classified that way, maybe they were only meant as enhancers at one point to push something else and became the standard for a matrix lure... maybe someone with more time and experience or a better theory could explain it to us both... i would only be guessing... jim
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Post by J.P. Wilson on Feb 16, 2012 16:57:50 GMT -5
lovage is the farthest thing from a passion ingredient for sure. It started hundreds of years ago when the latin word for The plant that the oil is obtained from was not translated properly to the english language. When it was translated it from latin to english it was called love parsley. The whole thing is a big misconception and now lovage is seen as a passion ingredient basically for marketing purposes but does nothing of the sort!
I find REAL cat nip to hold alot more attraction to cats rather than imitation. Cats are cats. Some days you can say their name and they will come to you just like a well trained dog, while other days they wouldn't even turn their head. Bobcats have a much similar nature with their nose as well as their attitude towards working a set
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Post by Brunner on Feb 16, 2012 21:42:24 GMT -5
Really wish I had something to offer to this thread as these subjects really peek my interest. However, I'm man enough to admit when I'm in over my head. Still have a lot of reading and experimentation to do before I have any good to add. Check back with me in another 15 years. ;D
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Post by bballou on Feb 16, 2012 22:31:01 GMT -5
Jim----sounds good to me-------Its suppose to be a simple subject-----but I have seen the subject of lure ingredients bring some LARGE trappers to ther knees ---BLUBBERING---uncontrolable. The time of the year---weather---animal----mixture---wind--and on and on are all factors---(factors could be a subject in its own) and lets not forget the trapper him self. Jim you are going to drag us into a very intresting subject here--- we wont all agree on the same things --- but we may each learn from one- other.-----I dont have many answers and if welcome I-D like to go along for the ride.
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Post by jsevering on Feb 16, 2012 22:44:17 GMT -5
jeromy...i listen to you go on enough about things, to know that isn't true...every one has something to offer or thoughts, no matter how long they been at it... variables and theories... no right no wrong just exchanging ideas or thoughts on things... heck i don't have the answers... bet most don't, about the time you think you do there's another variable or idea... theory... something to ponder... take this winter snow vrs what you were playing in this year compared to most... lots of variables there alone... was intended to be a thread where we could bounce thoughts...
know my thoughts are different than yours or anyone else s on some things... doesn't make mine right or you or anyone else wrong.... or visa verse
whole lots of ways to look at things and a whole lot of eyes and thought processes on how there digested... all of them... tons of variables, tons of eyes...
heck if ed didn't bring up lovage and catnip in his post, we would of never got the answer jp gave or his thoughts on catnip types and cat personality the way he looks at it and others also i imagine...
someone else may look at it a hair different... so what... heck were all butt heads... some just are afraid to show it... don't believe me look how many times the thread been hit with no replies... no one has all the answers to most anything... if they tell you they do, better go to someone else for advise... jim
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Feb 16, 2012 22:52:20 GMT -5
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Post by Brunner on Feb 16, 2012 23:08:16 GMT -5
Ok then, I'll throw this one out there and see if it gets any responses as it still really bothers me.
Last few days of season I was set up on a major k9 dispersal route. With only a very limited time frame to let these traps soak, I tried to put the odds as far in my favor as possible. I put walk - thru sets right under the tracks that the k9's were leaving as they traveled thru the area. Never connected at that location. Had visitors almost every night, but instead of "walking thru", they walked around. Proof was there in front of me plain as day. Why?? No loud or offensive lures were used, and all lures have caught their share of fur.
Is this where neophobia comes into play?? Neophobia by definition is the fear of the new or unknown. Well when you're talking dispersal, everything is new or unknown. By that definition, they'd be afraid just have to leave home.
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Post by mole on Feb 17, 2012 4:55:29 GMT -5
Reading some material from C. O'Gorman and he mentioned spookey cyotes. Maybe the smells you offered were also offered down the road somewhere in a more potent dose. With a less than perfect set. Who knows. OK my turn.. A few years ago the new miracle lure was SFE, it was on most every page in every periodical, then like Magic it vanished. Why??
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Post by jsevering on Feb 17, 2012 6:04:33 GMT -5
morning ed... think i remember hearing or reading they found out sfe and a couple of other synthetics can cause cancer... cant spell the word they use to define a cancer causing ingredient so wont even try.... but think that stopped a lot of the hype... may be wrong, could be another reason also...
that neophobia is a funny word also.... lots of guys insist its the backing or object you use at the set, area, natural vrs new appearance etc... don't here it really relate to much to olfactory senses, when you suggest it, or talk smells being a culprit, usually get apples and oranges... foxes and coyotes... on and on... kinda why it was nice to see it in that intro to the study in print relating to olfactory... like ed said who knows... jim
here's one ill throw out aint saying its right or wrong... scent wicks in snow... one way i like is to wrap a stick loose with grass or hay when i know snow is coming or there's only a few inches at my post sets... with the placements i like... figure it gives me a few plus's...
got the idea from one of bob jamesons demo's a few years back... the one with the plastic straw and the dirt hole.. took me a while thinking on it... too tied up thinking why use a straw in a dirt hole when you have windage working for you... had me all messed up until i started thinking of some of the possible plus's to capitalize on the idea ... know there's some guys out there can contribute a heck of a lot better than me with some things to kick around or thoughts on a whole host of things, what you waiting for, nature of the beast i guess... jim
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Post by milkie62 on Feb 17, 2012 9:29:15 GMT -5
I have also noticed that some brands of catnip have no appeal to our cats where others drive them nuts.I guess a trail cam setup in known cat territory with different catnips might be worth a try.
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Post by bballou on Feb 17, 2012 20:19:21 GMT -5
Jim is correct about my mentoring abilitie's ------after a guy has read all of Nick Washinski's ---Russ Carmans and Bill Nelsons and many others books on lure ingredients----there is still a pile of QUESTIONS "usually"------how do you answer ----- ??-----you tell then what you have found-----and then encourage them to THINK---and to try different things------ I have never found anything in the ingrediants game that was an ABSOLUTE and couldent be argued and boath sides be correct. ---The topic isnt rely that simple----but thats about the end of my ability to explain what little I know.------I am a bit bushed ------( put 10 hours on the beaver and muskrats) today. Lets not stop here----there--- is a pile we can all learn here. And every one can contribute (Brunner) in a positive way.----back a few years ago ---as a clean up lure-bait I used Smuckers grape jelly---had a lot of good luck with it--- (cough a lot of the dogs that had avoided me for the past few weeks) and have no idea what all the ingredients were. The set was very simple ---- a trap bedded near a rock (sticking out of the ground) ---and Smuckers rubbed on the rock. I can here it now----BUT it did the job I needed it to do-- The idea came from someone who was working on a Martin studdy ---all I did was think about it and ad-live a bit. (oh yes they were uesing strawberry jelly.)
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Post by coonduke on Feb 17, 2012 23:00:08 GMT -5
On the passion ingredients...
I read somewhere that during the breeding season the sulfide odor in canine urine increases. Asafoetida has a sulfide type odor...so I would assume that the old time lure makers thought the addition of it to a gland lure would mimic the smell of "in heat" urine more closely.
I have also read where asafoetida can create a urination response in canines, which would also make one believe it would be a fair addition to a gland lure.
Thirdly, it increase the odor strength of a lure...whcih is what some guys look for in a winter lure.
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Post by coonduke on Feb 17, 2012 23:02:59 GMT -5
Here's a post I made on trapperman a while back. Maybe the old timers who pioneered using rotten fish in lures knew more than we gave them credit for.
Decomposed fish is a pretty important lure making ingredient. Sun rendered fish oil, fish juice, and fish odors all have thier place in certain formulations. In my opinion, rotted fish is more than just a food odor. Many of the chemicals in fish are also in animal glands which may be used for intraspecies communication.
Here are some of my notes that I kept on hand when researching chemicals in animal glands and other substances.
Secondary changes in spoiling fish produce amines, indole, hydrogen sulfide, and skatol. These changes are caused by bacterial action.
Bacteria starts action at the gills and kidneys. Bacteria feeds on amino acids, creatine, carnosine, anserine, trimethylamine oxide, and vitamin B complex.
Fresh fish has no trimethylamine odor but decomposed fish does.
Piperidine, aminovaleric acid , and valeric aldehyde have a fishy odor. The precursors to these chemicals are lysine and arginine.
Lysine to cadaverine to piperidine Cadaverine to valeric aldehyde to valeric acid Agrinine to aminovaleric acid Arginine to putrescine
Slightly deteriorated fish has an aminovaleric acid odor.
Mercaptan or indole results in a putrid odor.
Reduction of trimethylamine oxide is accelerated by the addition of glucose or fructose.
Chemicals found in RED FOX and MINK glands...
Trimethylamine Putrescine Cadaverine Short chain carboxylic acids Aminovaleric acid Indole
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Post by jsevering on Feb 18, 2012 10:05:51 GMT -5
lots to digest there todd... kinda get what your saying a little, know when you read some of the old bill nelson formulas floating around he liked his fish paste... kinda took me back first time i seen it in a lure formula like that...
the growing bacteria part.. producing trimethylamine, wonder if his intent was to used that as an enhancer for the glands or to simulate some sort of scavenging response... imagine it may of served a couple of purposes... have no idea, but sure have a lot to think on with all that's in that post... thanks... jim
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Post by bballou on Feb 18, 2012 16:42:34 GMT -5
THATS GOOD ---JIM----like to know you are thinking------A mentor I had years ago was a master at taking fox in the winter at spring holes----he used a lot of fish oil---in about all his trapping------each lure had a different fish oil---and he was very percise as to what fish was used. Didnt think on it much then----- jest did as I was told ----you can bet Ill think on it now. I have a formula for fish oil ---juice----that was given to me twice ---one of the times it ment a lot---it was before the trapper passed on---he called me and wanted to tell me something-----I went to his home--and he said none of his children trapped and he wanted to leave the family mink formula with some one who would use it----( he passed on in a day or two) I had gotten the same formula from another old trapper years before----- and as far as I know they had never met or knew each other-- Sure is a small world.---coonduke may be on to something.
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Post by jsevering on Feb 18, 2012 23:49:46 GMT -5
im thinking bill... what im thinking is your possibly talking about harold kellogg... kinda thinking now, when we were talking spring holes there's a whole bunch you possibly left out ;D.... jim
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Feb 18, 2012 23:52:05 GMT -5
Jim... You're still up?? Bill never leaves anything out...
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Post by jsevering on Feb 18, 2012 23:59:26 GMT -5
still up just got the granddaughter to sleep... it don't get easier jerry.... know what you mean... bill never leaves anything out ;D... jim
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Post by bballou on Feb 19, 2012 6:32:18 GMT -5
"Sorry" Guys I always leave things out---but if you ask Ill tell you---Most dont ask questions---- "---- But if you dont think about whats going on (especially in trapping) how can you ever excell? I dont have any where near all the correct answers---all I can answer ---- is what works for me or what someone has told me works for them---- as anyone can see in this thread---there are a lot of variables ---if the trapper dont think to find out what works best in his situation---he ends up spinning his wheels. ----SO ---Jim ---82--- ask and Ill tell you what little I know.
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Post by brushwolf on Feb 19, 2012 7:16:38 GMT -5
Some very interesting info here. Way beyond my comprehension. Papabear has explained a few lure making fundementals to me. I bet he would have some good info to add. Jeromy maybe it was more of an association with the set than the lure that spooked the coyotes involved. Possibly somewhere else they were with another that was caught in a similar set and that caused their shyness. I remeber catching a female coyote once that was very vocal at a location that produced well yearly. After that particular female was caught the spot went dead for a long time.
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Post by jsevering on Feb 19, 2012 9:43:52 GMT -5
i have a question i'll throw out there, played with a lure... like it but continually needs burping... once its burped and the burping takes some time... walk away come back type deal.... its a darn good smelling lure as far as im concerned, once its burped... don't really want to fix it yet... but leaves this nagging question in my mind... the question is do you think some mixtures, have the possibility of still creating gas.... unnoticeable to the human nose... but ends up being a possible irritant close up... say first year works fine... next year for what ever reason it starts to works some more... the volcano under the cap deal... but not to the degree you get an eruption and not what you want working.... jim
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Post by bballou on Feb 19, 2012 14:50:38 GMT -5
Jim---Bill Nelson did some writing on this subject---and I think he is correct-----some ingredients NEVER STOP working----some improve --- some stay the same---and others will loose what they have. the important thing is to know witch is witch.---- Bill always said his lure got better with age--( it had to keep working to do so.)---Kind-a like a good bottle of wine.---I have never figured if lure should be kept like wine---at an angle--so the heaver particles could settle together and work together --so to speak----gassing is included in the term---working--- Did I give you what you wanted? ?---- And yes I left a lot out.
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Post by bballou on Feb 19, 2012 15:04:19 GMT -5
brushwolf ---- I have had the same thing happen-----thinking about it---I came up with gang setting for coyotes-----( never less than 4 sets ) ---at a stop---- (most times more) take as many as you can --- because the survivors will spread the word----and things will go dead----- I think it has helped -----NOW IF----I can figure how to work it with fisher.
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