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Post by jsevering on Feb 20, 2012 7:45:55 GMT -5
lol... you gave me what i needed to hear... not what i wanted... just glad i work with small amounts, or that nagging feeling would be crying... wish it was only the urine i used, im wondering about... think i was warned by a little bird about getting to carried away... thought chef boy ardee had nothing on me on that mix... gonna have to rethink some i think...jim
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Post by bballou on Feb 20, 2012 18:07:44 GMT -5
May-be this will help you ----Jim-----back a few years ago Bernie and I put up some fish----figured it should be on the heavy oil side----was going to try it on Fisher-----well the end of October came---and we were going to bottle it-----opened the 5 gallon pail ---and NOTHING HAD HAPPENED---IT ---looked as if we jest put it in the pail. ---The laugh sure was on us.------you have ingredients that wont stop working ----- I got the ones that wont work.
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Post by oldtimer on Feb 20, 2012 20:47:21 GMT -5
any one interested. talking of aged lures ialways bought nelson and 4oz bottels at that because was told they got better with age< some i had sealed for almost 10 years and seemed to performe better witheach year. now most of the lure i now use is at least 2 years past date of making . works for me andmay be worth expermining with.oldtimer.
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Post by jsevering on Feb 20, 2012 22:24:37 GMT -5
always interested... a few years back bill gave me an old bottle of nelson lure, when he first started explaining things like spikes.... wasn't familiar with it,(the exact lure name) but what a nice smooth roll between spikes... i could pick up three, one right into the other... real nice roll.... oscar cronk had a red fox lure that's fairly similar with the smooth rolls between spikes, i came across in the tailgate section, in a box with some other old lures... always wondered if it (cronk's) may of been an old arnold formula i think the aging, at least with that nelson lure, may of had a lot to do with it....and the tonquin he used then for at least one of the rolls... couldn't say for sure... jim
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Post by bballou on Feb 21, 2012 21:46:16 GMT -5
THE lure Jims talking about is from the 1950's----Bill sent my dad a gallon===and we put it up into 4 oz. bottles--- (sealed in wax) Its rely nice to open a bottle and take a big smell----nice and smooth ---easy to enjoy.
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Zagman
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,186
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Post by Zagman on Feb 22, 2012 7:09:27 GMT -5
Bill was kind enough to share a bottle of that with me as well.
Still sitting on my shelf.......Bill told me USE IT! And I will......just cant believe I have a bottle of lure 60 years old.
He is right....it has the nicest, smoothest feel to it..........what a great smell, and I am sure it will be dynamite on the canids next year.
I will, as usual, take copious notes and review the results.
MZ
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Post by mole on Feb 22, 2012 7:18:32 GMT -5
Seeing is Believing ? Visual attractors? When - Time of Day or Night , K 9's are working sets. Little man made tracks, effective? Scratch marks? Effective What ever. Pitch Black Dark of the moon Pre Dawn When?? Inquirey minds want to know.
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Post by J.P. Wilson on Feb 22, 2012 8:01:00 GMT -5
Most aged lures have that unbelievable smooth smell like everything in it is pronounced yet properly blended all at once. However some Lures depending on certain ingredients or preservatives can alter smells or sometimes can even completely stop working all together. A good example of this is tinctured skunk essence smells great for up to 5 years when a good tincture is done properly. I have a bottle of tinc. skunk essence i bought from a reputable dealer and after 3 years it smells just like bannana essence and it is almost clear in color! Age tells what you've got either garbage or something great!
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Post by bballou on Feb 22, 2012 16:10:39 GMT -5
Mr. jpwilson----you used skunk as an example---of an ingredient that looses its smell----I may be wrong --but isnt that common with skunk It goes from full strength to sweet-skunk ---to nothing. Seams like I read that some-place.
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Post by papabear on Feb 22, 2012 16:40:15 GMT -5
Dear Friends, I was a huge fan of the Nelson formulas as componded by Fuller Laugman. There is very little original left and when its gone its gone forever......... Although the formulas are available the original lure odors as componded by Nelson and Laugman are nearly impossible to exactly duplicate. WHY? Because we no longer have available the same quality or grades of materials/ ingredients they used.....Case and point TONQUIN MUSK. Regards papabear
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Post by J.P. Wilson on Feb 22, 2012 18:44:27 GMT -5
Yes that is fairly common with skunk Thats why i used it for an example but different methods of tincturing can greatly alter the solvent depending on what is used even different preservatives can break odors Thats kind of what i was getting at sorry if there was confusion
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Post by bballou on Feb 22, 2012 19:39:00 GMT -5
jpwilson-----dont be sorry---- I dident realize you were making an example---the confusion was on my part-----your example is absoutly correct. Thank-you very much.
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Feb 22, 2012 22:29:17 GMT -5
I am enjoying this immensely.. Thank you for sharing.
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Post by papabear on Feb 23, 2012 8:40:04 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Bill & Mr JP., Heres a question for you. If you add skunk essence to a formula and over time the skunk odor dissipates to a point it can no longer be detected and you add more essence to enhance/ or bring back the odor, what affect would that have on the base/ core ingredients of the formula? Regards papabear
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Post by J.P. Wilson on Feb 23, 2012 8:54:43 GMT -5
I honestly don't like to do it. That old broken down skunk essence is always in there and it may not alter any odors to our noses once new skunk is added it but would the animals pick it out? i know the k9's would perhaps not a fisher or weasel but, another thing to think about i suppose thats my spin on it!
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Post by bballou on Feb 23, 2012 11:44:41 GMT -5
papabear --- back a few years ago Carrol Black built a great K9 lure that contained sweet skunk----He told me not to hold it over --- unless I wanted to add to it next season.----lots of guys liked it but the next year the skunk was gone----Blackie said jest add sweet skunk and you would be back in business----no one wanted to add anything on ther own----so he stopped making it----My son and I never had a problem adding when the original was gone---So my answer is I have never seen any differance when--- RE----ADDING skunk to a depleated skunk or sweet skunk lure---I also never seen where it bothered the K9's ---and the K9's would tell you the story.
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Post by J.P. Wilson on Feb 23, 2012 15:55:13 GMT -5
I like your thoughts bill It's very interesting. I don't alter any of my formulas once they are set because that changes consistency and color and so on but thats from a business point of view, but like you say the animals are the ones that really matter anyway and for personal use to regain the skunk smell i see nothing wrong with it. I need to start explaining better from the get go haha.
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Post by papabear on Feb 23, 2012 16:30:47 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Bill, I assume your referring to Blackies DEATHWIND lure, if so that was a very good lure...............Whats your guys thoughts on Tonquin Musk today as opposed to the pod Tonquin of years ago? Regards papabear
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Post by J.P. Wilson on Feb 23, 2012 18:19:52 GMT -5
There is no comparison in my opinion i have a gallon of real tinctured tonquin from the pods that i will never use but i've got some! Out of what we have left to choose from on a regular basis i feel like the synthetic siberian deer musk is the closest in having the same fixative qualities like helping to carry and pronounce the other smells in the formulation. the synthetic tonquin just doesn't have that same smell but is still beneficial in compounding lures. Synthetic tonquin was developed as a cheaper substitute for siberian deer musk and is of slighlty lesser quality
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Post by J.P. Wilson on Feb 23, 2012 18:22:41 GMT -5
papabear what are your thoughts on muscaro musk? i think muscaro could be talked about on here for ever as no one has the same muscaro and everyone has a different thought on what it is supposed to be
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Post by bballou on Feb 23, 2012 20:49:17 GMT -5
papabear-----I was fortunate to have some of the original tonquin----came fron EJ --- I dident have the heart to use it ---so I gave it to a friend on this site. NOW---- (I have only bought a few oz's.) ---- Mr. Graw sells a tonquin today that is built from fresh pods from Russia---it sure smells good---but my nose is as old as I am---and I have only had it since Oct. More to come on that--------But to answer your question ----no I dont think any of the past few years tonquin were up to the old original stuff -----mainly because it wasent built to a consistant oder. ---- ( no ones fault the product wasent available ) By the way I did talk to the Graws and they assured me the tonquin pods were like the originals. There repution is 100% in my book.
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Post by papabear on Feb 23, 2012 22:36:35 GMT -5
Dear Friends, it is my understanding that the most valuable tonquin musk originates from China and Tibet, a lower grade was imported form India and the lowest grade from Russia and Siberia.......In your opinion when substituting synthetic for the original what ratio do you use in formulation? Regards papabear
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Post by papabear on Feb 23, 2012 22:45:52 GMT -5
Dear Mr. JP, A good Muscaro is a wonderful lure all by itself. When used SPARINGLY in formualtion it a top self ENHANCER....The best Muscaro Ive worked with came from the late Dave Edwards of Buffalo Creek Products! Regards papabear
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Post by bballou on Feb 24, 2012 5:59:02 GMT -5
papabear-----If I remember correctly the rule of thumb ----when adding the synthetic tonquin vs the original ----WAS 2 TO 1-----BUT ---I found that sometimes that was a little light----the big kicker that I found was the inability of the synthetic to stand the test of time like the original pods.
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Post by J.P. Wilson on Feb 24, 2012 7:55:28 GMT -5
I was given a pt. of muscaro musk and it was the best stuff i have ever used it came from an old timer and he told me it was pure tonquin and musk ox and that was all it was. I later did some research on it but musk ox have no musk glands and i now only have 1 oz of this left due to my stupidity at a young age i burned it up. I don't know quite what it is but there is no beaver castor or rhodium or anything like the typical muscaro that is around
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