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Post by squash on Apr 2, 2023 7:22:02 GMT -5
I received fisher survey from Cornell. I filled it out but refused to submit it. IMO The whole survey is crafted so your comments can be a means to more trapping regulations, bag limits, lottery, and shorter season. If or when that happens the state will point to the survey and say it is what trappers want.
i would urge any NY trapper that receives this survey, to not take the survey.
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Post by tony1967 on Apr 2, 2023 15:50:23 GMT -5
I haven’t seen one yet…….
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Post by trapperjack on Apr 2, 2023 22:14:21 GMT -5
I received the survey also. Why does it start out stating,” we don’t anticipate any risk taking this survey”? Odd? I then received it again today stating they sent the wrong link and had displayed a new one. Whole thing seems weird. I also filled it out but was hesitant about the whole thing. I didn’t send it either. Today the new link showed and now I don’t know what to think.
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Post by shawnl on Apr 3, 2023 7:52:19 GMT -5
I received mine Saturday in the mail. I filled it out and it sits on the desk. Not sure if I was going to mail it back. But there’s a number to call for the administrator of this survey. I believe I’ll call him today.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 3, 2023 20:07:50 GMT -5
I received an e-mail about the survey, but could not open the link. I am very suspicous of the sentence telling me not to share this with anyone. Why??? I've seen trick surveys in the past via Cornell/DEC. With much experience dealing with them I don't trust DEC or Cornell.I agree completely with Squash.I've seen these surveys in the past to trick trappers to justify what they already plan to do.Their public information meetings are a joke. Trappers BEWARE !
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Post by papabear on Apr 3, 2023 21:32:54 GMT -5
I believe I've been blacklisted from their surveys. I haven't gotten any surveys since the last bogus survey they did several years ago when I called that Cornell clown in charge of the DEC surveys and told him exactly what I thought of their biased multiple choice, predetermined answers to the questions they asked. I told him that before this type of survey is put out the very least DEC and Cornell should do is confer and include input from NYSTA's JTI committee because these surveys were being sent to trappers with a wide range of experience levels, from beginners to the experienced. I then asked where the choice of {E: other} response to the questions was. He told me that written responses could be put on another sheet but wouldn't be counted as they use a machine to count the "marked" answers that they provided. It is my strong opinion that the answers THEY offer to the questions presented by THEM is to lead survey takers to THEIR desired preference of responses THEY want. In effect it's like they hand you a stick and ask you to beat yourself with it! Please understand that I am not opposed to a well thought out survey to collect information, but results from these surveys as conducted, could form opinions that result in regulation changes that might not be favorable to trappers. I second Mr Paintedpaw's advise. TRAPPERS BEWARE!!!!
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 4, 2023 13:31:35 GMT -5
Years ago the NYS Trappers Assn. surveyed it's members, but the survey was ignored by DEC.DEC also ignored their own St.Lawrence County survey which showed that there is no negative affect upon fisher with a later season. DEC is always looking for something from trappers (skulls, logs, even beaver meat for their trapping yet they refuse to meet trappers halfway. They pay no attention to harvesting this resource when it is prime ( a southern tier season in October, shortening the Adirondack season, but on the wrong end). I hate the condescending attitude that they know everything and we know nothing. They put out carefully worded surveys to trick trappers and subject to the variables that Pappa Bear has pointed out. We may not be college educated biologists, but I can assure you that trappers like Pappa Bear know a heck of a lot more about Fisher than some of the biologists. DEC is purely political and these guys are more interested in covering their butts than doing what is best for the resource. Why does it take forever to complete a fisher management plan? Why does it take well over two decades for an otter management plan? TRAPPERS BEWARE !!!!
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Post by trapperjack on Apr 4, 2023 18:27:58 GMT -5
Years ago the NYS Trappers Assn. surveyed it's members, but the survey was ignored by DEC.DEC also ignored their own St.Lawrence County survey which showed that there is no negative affect upon fisher with a later season. DEC is always looking for something from trappers (skulls, logs, even beaver meat for their trapping yet they refuse to meet trappers halfway. They pay no attention to harvesting this resource when it is prime ( a southern tier season in October, shortening the Adirondack season, but on the wrong end). I hate the condescending attitude that they know everything and we know nothing. They put out carefully worded surveys to trick trappers and subject to the variables that Pappa Bear has pointed out. We may not be college educated biologists, but I can assure you that trappers like Pappa Bear know a heck of a lot more about Fisher than some of the biologists. DEC is purely political and these guys are more interested in covering their butts than doing what is best for the resource. Why does it take forever to complete a fisher management plan? Why does it take well over two decades for an otter management plan? TRAPPERS BEWARE !!!! Amen Brother. Well said. Papa Bear has been on the line since time began. One great trapper!!
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Apr 5, 2023 17:40:41 GMT -5
Well, they already tell us that only a biologist can determine our gender, so... yes they're SO much smarter than us, of course...
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 6, 2023 16:36:39 GMT -5
Today I received a second survey,this one from DEC. I am very wary!Why two just days apart? The questions are quite similar, geared towards Fisher, but asking about other species too,Questions about how many traps i had set, how many nights they were set, and how many animals I caught. That, to me, is trying to justify their college theory of TPUE (traps per unit of effort).The theory is flawed, it does not take into account weather conditions or the amount of ability of the trapper. I worry as what is up their sleeve. From past experience I don't trust DEC or Cornell.Could they be planing changes such as season lengths, season date changes, catch limits, or God knows what. I urge trappers to not return the surveys and BEWARE !
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Post by papabear on Apr 7, 2023 15:56:44 GMT -5
These walls must have eyes, LOL! I posted above on 4/3/23 and today, 4/7/23, in my mailbox was a New York State Trapper survey postmarked 4/5/23, the first one I've received in several years. This one has no mention of not sharing its contents or an assurance of no anticipated risk taking this survey or a number to call for the administrator of this survey. (Must be that Cornell fella don't want me to call no more, lol) It contains 9 questions not specific to any one furbearer, however it does have a box at the end with my name, address,(I don't remember being on other surveys I've received from them in the past) and the # 1344 which I assume is the survey ballot number.
Questions: #1 Did you set any traps in New York during the 2022-2023 season? yes or no
#2 Are you a licensed NWCO? yes or no
#3 Referring to the map, indicate the number of animals for each species you trapped in areas A,B,C,or D
#4 For last season, please indicate the total number of days you had traps set on land and the average number of traps set on land and water each day.
#5 Please indicate how many days in total you trapped and the average number of traps you used per day in the last season for the following species. Muskrat, Beaver, Otter Raccoon, Bobcat, Fisher
#6 If you observed any river otter, bobcat, fisher, marten or moose in NY during the past year. (fill in the boxes)
#7 Why did you choose to respond to this survey? 8 choices with one being "other" with a box for a write in response.
#8 What factors would keep you from responding to a future mail, telephone, or internet survey from NYS DEC? 8 choices with one being "other" with a box for a write in response.
#9 What would make it easier for you to complete surveys sent by NYSDEC? write your answer in the box / space provided.
Is this the survey you guys got or a different one?
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 7, 2023 19:32:03 GMT -5
That is the same as the second survey I received. I tore it up. I also E=Mailed the Cornell guy and told him that I would not submit the survey, and why. I do not trust Cornell or DEC, based upon trick surveys in the past, used against us, and the condescending attitude towards trappers. I am very, very suspicious of these surveys. Why did they come so close together??Why did the Cornell survey tell us not to share with anyone? What is the big secret? I hope the JTI gets to the bottom of this and quick.
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Post by trappermac on Apr 7, 2023 20:37:23 GMT -5
Thanks for posting the questions papabear. I've not received either survey, but have received them in the past.
Maybe I'm too trusting, but see nothing in the survey that papabear posted as scary, or in any way detrimental to trappers? At least they are allowing you to write in an answer under the "other" category as opposed to having to only select what they predetermine. Nothing about season dates. Question are mainly to determine trapper success rates (which is purely subjective due to trapper experience, local populations, and other factors) and also how they could make these surveys more appealing to trappers. Am I wrong?
Would be nice to know if the JTI or the BOD had any input into the surveys, and perhaps some direction for NY trappers on how they should react to these surveys. I know they come on here.....
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Post by papabear on Apr 7, 2023 23:13:55 GMT -5
Mr Paintedpaw, I too am not ready to throw caution into the wind. I too have been on the receiving end of a biologist's condescending attitude and arrogant behavior from a couple of ECO's towards trappers in the field. Anymore I just mind and go about my business. No more reporting family groups of otter sightings in the Mohawk River. Bobcat sightings in the Mohawk Valley. Marten I've seen in the southern and outside the fringes of the Adaks and in WMU 6R & 6S and the occasional moose or tracks from them in my travels. I understand completely that I am by no means a wildlife expert, but I have a hard time when some of these young bucks who aren't old enough to know much more than what they were taught in a classroom come off as one.
Questions 4 & 5 they are still gleaning input for their, in my opinion, flawed TPUE theory. I will need to further think about and digest the answer choices for questions 7, 8, & 9. Perhaps I am wrong but some of the choices they list seem to imply that they think some of us trappers' elevators don't go to the top floor. For the time being I will apply the old adage; Fool me once shame on you, Fool me twice shame on me.
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Post by papabear on Apr 8, 2023 8:25:46 GMT -5
#7 Why did you choose to respond to this survey? (select all that apply) 1. The topic is important to me 2. To help NYSDEC collect accurate information 3. To make sure my information is included 4. The questions were easy to answer 5. I thought I could complete the survey quickly 6. I trust NYSDEC to use the information properly 7. I don't know 8. Other (describe below)
#8 What factors would keep you from responding to a future mail, telephone, or internet survey from NYS DEC? (select all that apply) 1. Survey arrives when I am busy/don't have free time 2. I don't want to complete more than 1 DEC survey per year 3. Survey has to many questions 4. Survey topic is not of interest 5. I screen my calls; I wouldn't answer a call about a survey 6. Its hard for me to complete survey forms on a computer. 7. It's hard for me complete survey forms on a cell phone 8. Survey questions looked complicated 9. Other (describe below)
#9 What would make it easier for you to complete surveys sent by NYSDEC? box provided for a written reply.
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Post by papabear on Apr 8, 2023 11:23:57 GMT -5
My survey responses to 7,8 and 9:
Question #7 Why did you choose to respond to this survey? (select all that apply) choice #2. To help NYSDEC collect accurate information
Question #8 What factors would keep you from responding to a future mail, telephone, or internet survey from NYS DEC? (select all that apply) choice #9. Other (describe below) NYSDEC manipulation of answer choices that could result in negative outcome for trapping
Question #9 What would make it easier for you to complete surveys sent by NYSDEC? written reply: NYSDEC consulting with and including input from NYSTA
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Post by trappermac on Apr 8, 2023 12:09:11 GMT -5
I think your answers are perfect.
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Post by papabear on Apr 9, 2023 8:37:41 GMT -5
After checking around it is apparent that there are at least two different surveys. An e-mailed survey from Cornell and a mailed survey from NYSDEC out of Albany. I have not received nor have I seen the emailed Cornell version but have been informed by a reliable source that it does in fact contain some carefully crafted questions that could mislead survey takers to responses that are not in the best interest of trappers. TRAPPER BEWARE and be careful if you decide to respond.
The mailed NYSDEC version (as I have typed out in above posts) seems to be acknowledge, via questions 7, 8, and 9, that they are having issues with getting trappers to respond to their surveys. However, this survey could and should be used to let them know, via our responses to questions 7, 8, and 9, that trappers are onto their trickery of past surveys! Above I have listed my responses to questions 7, 8, and 9 and feel that should send them a message, now if there were multiple responses like mine or along those same lines, one could assume that it would send them a strong, clear message!
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Post by shawnl on Apr 9, 2023 19:56:24 GMT -5
I had to chuckle. I got the survey. It says your identity will not be known. Then a week later I get a letter saying we haven’t received your survey back yet. Lol. Gotta love it.
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Post by erict on Apr 9, 2023 22:02:23 GMT -5
Instead of debating these surveys here, has anyone picked up a phone and demanded answers for why these surveys are being issued? Yep, it's probably going to take a bit of work to get to the proper people, but this seems important enough. I'd do it myself but I have not received either survey. Complaining about it here isn't going to fix anything. Sure wish there was an organization actively looking out for NY Trappers.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 10, 2023 10:07:36 GMT -5
I strongly disagree.Communications from NYSTA are very poor.However,it appears that not everyone got the surveys. How are you supposed to react if you are unaware of it happening? Posting on this site, and other sites at least makes some trappers aware and cautioned of the possible dangers from these surveys.I have been able to forward the surveys to the NYSTA leadership.
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