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Post by sthet on Apr 6, 2012 16:45:59 GMT -5
I have just been contacted by a college student who is going to do an river otter study. She will be collecting scat at sites around the montezuma refuge and surrounding area. This collection will help her to determine family groups, area covered and estimate population levels. I will be assisting her and her group and acting as a guide, showing her around this area.
I am looking for questions that might concern us that I could maybe find answers to.
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Post by davie6 on Apr 7, 2012 7:40:24 GMT -5
What college? Sounds like a Master's study I applied for at Penn State.....
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Post by sthet on Apr 7, 2012 15:36:51 GMT -5
SUNY- ESF
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Post by sthet on Apr 11, 2012 10:45:56 GMT -5
No interest ??
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Post by Itrapny on Apr 11, 2012 11:08:51 GMT -5
What is the typical/average "Home Range" for an otter in CNY? What percentage of "rough" fish are in the diet on CNY Otters? What is the typical/average litter size of CNY otter's? What is the average adult to juvenile ratio for the CNY otter population?
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Apr 11, 2012 16:39:27 GMT -5
"What is the typical/average "Home Range" for an otter in CNY?"
Adult male vs adult female....
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Post by jsevering on Apr 12, 2012 7:07:18 GMT -5
what type of social structure is she trying to find, define or develop for her paper within her study... does the refuge have the capability of supporting such a social structure, what are her determining factors/ control?
how does the possible social structures of say the refuge area vary from the refuge to a river, like the upper west and east branches of the delaware river or a mountain type area with creeks like the willowemoc and upper beaverkill, isolated small lakes and ponds with multiple tributaries and overland crosses... would the social structures as she's defining them be different for each...
what is baseline definition of the studies toilet areas and variables in toilet types... will it have an impact on the final paper...
is this paper going to be used by dec for future references in proposed social structures for areas studied and if so what are their guide lines in regard to different areas actually studied do they want the same type social structure for rivers... mountain areas...
whats the standard present date standard, criteria for each before they figure there is a viable population that would support a harvest or to reinstate a harvest in former traditional otter harvest areas stolen by feel good politics .... jim
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Post by sthet on Apr 12, 2012 8:40:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the quesitons and concerns...I will be sure that she gets a copy of all questions we can come up with...she may or may not be wanting or willing to look for any answers...being a college paper...and from what I can gather from our brief email conversations...I doubt it is intended for any kind of policy or political reference...there are local DEC who are contacts...rest assured those contacts understand my concerns with the river otter population in our area...as does most of the working DEC...I'm sure they will get a copy of the final paper...there is a DEC furbearer biologist who is also doing an otter study...I believe his research will be geared more closely with needed information that will pertain to policy and procedure...when and if these studies are combined and/or compared is something for a crystal ball...or at least something I am not awear of at this time...but it is a needed start...and when it is finished...I hope to at least be able to have some bases and a better understanding to request some policy change...or not.
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Post by redknot on Apr 12, 2012 15:59:53 GMT -5
whats the standard present date standard, criteria for each before they figure there is a viable population that would support a harvest or to reinstate a harvest in former traditional otter harvest areas stolen by feel good politics .... jim
Just what I was thinking Jim, as I read down through the post...
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Post by jsevering on Apr 13, 2012 9:08:17 GMT -5
it really amazes me how they side stepped that issue for close to a decade, probably better with the initial closings, just prior to the end of the restoration...
i often wondered if an otter eats 20 percent of its body weight or so daily to keep its metabolism and calorie intake going... what type of population structures are they truly after... something has to give, the old timer's around here use to call them river wolfs..funny always figured they had a reason...
i truly wonder what they are trying to achieve... and in the long run is it truly practical or worth it, pushing it to limit's that weren't part of the original agreed restoration plan, for reasons part of the original partnership in the program appears not to be privy to...
maybe a question scott, would be how long could the refuge continually sustain the social structure found or desired without fringe habitat and how far would that fringe habitat need to be expanded to sustain the assumed health and need of the structure found.... jim
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Post by sthet on Apr 13, 2012 17:06:23 GMT -5
I have asked that question to each biologist I deal with both state and federal, they do not know or have an answer...that was the one question I had in mind...and the right track for proper questioning...to help us as trappers...if the answer is ever found or sought or revieled or known is a nother story...hopefully with a research such as this the answer may become apparent.
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Post by PnM on Apr 14, 2012 11:08:52 GMT -5
To try and answer some of the questions that have been asked would, IMO, introduce unacceptable bias into the study. There are, in my mind, two important elements important to management of the species: 1. A properly designed study of the natural history of the subject species. 2. Development of a properly developed index to abundance. The latter is apparently the aim of the ongoing DEC study and would be one of the important elements in constructing a management scenario. The natural history of the River Otter has been described by previous studies. Newer, more efficient field methods may very well have been developed and habitat conditions have certainly changed, which suggests that current knowledge of the Otter's natural history could benefit from additional basic research. There is no mention of the reason for the student's study. Is it a Masters Thesis or an undergraduate effort? Is there a Professor guiding the study? The rigor of the study would necessarily rest on the answer to those question. Unbiased scientific study of the Otter will help us as trappers by providing credibility to management decisions that are defensible in the face of continued anti activity.
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Post by jsevering on Apr 15, 2012 11:22:00 GMT -5
Newer, more efficient field methods may very well have been developed and habitat conditions have certainly changed, which suggests that current knowledge of the Otter's natural history could benefit from additional basic research. ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………….. Conditions changed ... Preferred habitat versus fringe, bet those released otters found the preferred areas fairly quick and set up circuits and shop, regardless of the newer more efficient field methods being developed over the last decade.
What does perverting the dependency of a natural social structure, from preferred habitats and fringe circuit use, to access these preferred areas as provided by nature and god, into a forced fringe social structure area of dependency accomplish?
I ask this, because it appears to be the goal of the restoration program, or at least here it has been for the last decade… without any of the more efficient field methods that may have been developed… but never used here, from the very get go, just lip service on proposed studies and promises within the wmu’s that were closed … so yes I may be a little bias and figure the promised three year excuse been up years ago… show me the research performed and studies in the last decade here…
The college mentioned happens to be the one funded for the otter research in part of the wmu areas that were shut down.
I am amazed that there is still no study, being performed here in the Catskill area a decade later or the lack of ever seeing a reputed petition for a study here… figure only history is political, except maybe for some of the otters in western and central new york, relocated from here… biased …yeah maybe…
I for one would like to see one unbiased study from ten years ago to the present for our area…
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Unbiased scientific study of the Otter will help us as trappers by providing credibility to management decisions that are defensible in the face of continued anti activity. …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
Makes for a nice party line… everyone with that line, should of gave that due consideration over ten years ago… the otter program has been biased from the start, by some, ironically… why even if the students are unbiased, which I believe they more than likely are, should I or anyone think, those who manipulate the final results of their paper wont be…. go back and look in an unbiased natural history, sort of way, from the stand point of those of us, that been shut down for a decade now or better…. Unbiased scientific study, you have got to be kidding, maybe unbiased participants, led like sheep to the slaughter, like ten years or so ago!! …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
Development of a properly developed index to abundance. The latter is apparently the aim of the ongoing DEC study and would be one of the important elements in constructing a management scenario.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… I would agree as long as the “historical” preferred habitat enables the same….
“ habitat conditions have certainly changed, which suggests that current knowledge of the Otter's natural history could benefit from additional basic research.”
I ask in a very unbiased and serious way… has the acceptable habitat to enable a preconceived human index to abundance, changed within the historical otter structure, if so… for the otter, or for the people who want it to be so…
is there a difference in acceptable, useable habitat and dependent social structures, if so, which one are we shooting for here… seriously… the one for the otter or the people with a preconceived habitat expansion goals to include forced same type social structure development within fringe habitat areas, lacking the actual preferred habitat that these fringe areas connect, but are perceived to be an area of abundance, to support dependent structure, but in fact lacking in acceptable habitat for the otter, not the folks trying to force them there … jim
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Post by fisherman on Apr 16, 2012 15:42:41 GMT -5
After watching the otter restoration from start to present I certainly sympatize with trappers like you Jim. I too remember the three year promise and how that went by the boards a long time ago, never fulfilled. A season closure of a decade is totally unacceptable, and to me demonstrates that DEC has not a clue in assessing river otter populations. Counting scats or otter toilets just does not cut it. There are streams here in the Adirondacks that I consider to be otter highways, yet in the dead of winter try and find a sign of an otter. Otter change their habits and habitats with the seasons and I must question the DEC methods of population assessment. I have asked for updates for years on the restoration study with always the same vague, non committal answers. The truth is that there was no good reason to close those areas of the Catskills and Mohawk Valley in the first place! Certainly some areas will always hold low populations because of the lack of suitable habitat. How can you over trap that which is not there? What about the areas with very suitable habitat and the fact that a number of the restoration otters for western NY came from those now closed areas? I understand that there are political influences as well. I for one am getting tired of all these Cornell grad student studies, and how much DEC relys upon them. I have great respect for our present wildlife biologists ( not always the case in the past), but I would much prefer to see the state conduct an independant outside study not connected with DEC, Cornell, or ESF. A decade long closure is not only shameful, but truly unprofessional.
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Post by sthet on Apr 16, 2012 16:14:08 GMT -5
Thanks for your input, Al. The reason for the lack of updates is known by us all...there isn't one...no one knows what's going on out there. For me to report all sightings of animal and animal sign would be a full time job and would lead to some file somewhere, to be delt with at a later date or not. I believe that by suggesting a trapper guide this study the biologists, both federal and state, are doing what they can to make it more impartial and known by the outside. They know what drives me and trust that I will show what I can to aid in this study. Rest assurred it is in my best interest that as many of these studies be done asap in my part of the restoration area and I will try and be a part of as much of this as I can. I will to the best of my abilities make the findings known to all that can, if it be at all possible, bring about the proper changes. There was an attempt at a population density study a couple years ago in my area, by outside interests and for reasons unknown to me it was never started. I believe that was political, but am not sure.
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