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Post by jsevering on Mar 11, 2006 19:16:33 GMT -5
bill had brought up a pretty good point a few threads ago on centering the foot, belive most of us do it without even thinking or giving it much thought, regardless of the animal we are trapping...... and depending on specific animal being trapped .....with the conditions and situation presented, which foot we attempt to target......front or rear.
know there isnt that many younger trappers hitting the board here, but figured for the few we have mabye a good discusion thread on centering the paw for land animals along with foot selection for rats and beavers given certain water conditions or in the necessary situations.
dont just say guiding, windage, ect, ect but kinda explain how you do it so we can debate the finer points of each others methods....... guides used, windage directions, trap placements, lure placements, reasoning behind them ,ect, ect., mabye we can help a youngster and even ourselves in the process.
kinda hate threads like this cause you know there is gonna be lurkers that absorb like a sponge and wont squeeze a drop for another......so figure might as well let someone else start, if their interested in getting a thread going.....jim
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Post by Itrapny on Mar 11, 2006 19:23:35 GMT -5
Jim, Great thoughts! I always try and place my trap pan about 2 inches off center and about 7-8 inches back, regardless of the set I'm using for K-9's. I used to place my trap jaw right on the edge of the hole when all I had to trap was fox and always connected pretty good but with the longer legged 'yotes, I noticed I had quite a few tracks back in the pattern and fewer catches. Once I moved the trap back, even in post and flat sets, my catch ratio increased dramatically. I always place the trap so the animals foot is going over the jaw versus through it. I think that it results in a better pad catch, at least for me it does.
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Post by mole on Mar 11, 2006 19:51:18 GMT -5
Good topic; On the canine sets I like dead center and back about 4 to 5 incches. That 2 inches to the left or right as far as I an concerned is not necessary and only confuses the situation. I use dirt clumps ,weed stems etc to guide. Water trapping; Different story, If I think someone else is or has been in the area ,I start thinking about Left foot catches. Most people are right handed and set their traps for right foot catches. What if the rat,beaver,mink footed its self. there is no foot to put in the trap. Your Turn. Ed
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Post by jsevering on Mar 11, 2006 19:55:36 GMT -5
coyotes and foxes sure threw trap placement for a loop with me for awhile always second guessing, think one of the most important things I picked up on was the use of lure placements along with lure selection and hole angles to help guide in part.
remember the days of squeezing the lip of the hole had a ton of back leg catches with the foxes, you could say my lure selection was piss poor.
find for myself that with dirt hole sets the angle and direction or side slant of the hole is more important for me depending on the type hole set used, for my actual trap placement, kinda like a hole they can drop their snout in, find my placement will be closer to the hole on that type hole set for coyotes and alittle more fox foot placement compatable with less guiding on my part, usally alittle rough dirt hump right before and on the forward jaw more or less.....jim
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Post by jsevering on Mar 11, 2006 20:07:09 GMT -5
ed........ being a wise guy here........how do you know which way they are traveling to target the good foot..... guess were lucky god gave them four, all other things not considered in the mix....jim
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Post by mole on Mar 11, 2006 20:35:17 GMT -5
I have to agree with you jim; you are not being a very wise-guy. ;D When a beaver aproches a castor mound he is going forward,when a mink approches a pocket set he is going forward. When a rat approches a what ever he is going forward. Just like a canine at a dirt hole set. I just off set to the left. Ed
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Post by bballou on Mar 11, 2006 20:47:45 GMT -5
Jim: Good idea. Everyone has very good points, I hope I dont mess it up.With me I confuse myself most of the time. I try to catch most of my k9's by the right frt. ft. I pile the rocks,sod, sticks and what ever so the animal when entering the set puts his right frt. ft. on the pan.I set the trap on a 45dg. angle with the pan 1 in. off cent.. ( for coyote I set 9 to 18 in. back from focal point and 4 to 8 in. back for fox.) The confuseing part is sometimes the k9 is not cought---- digs the hole out or many other things, --- I have for the last 20 years used at least 3 focus items at the set to make the k9 move his feet around ---and dont care what foot we catch them by. as LONG AS THE ANIMAL IS COUGHT. Does THIS MAKE ANY SENCE? ? Most of the time when the money is on the line we can catch the frt. foot we want 90. % of the time.OH yes 95% of my pans are cut to abour half dollar sz. Hope this makes sence.
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Post by jsevering on Mar 11, 2006 21:36:08 GMT -5
Slim pedersen use to bring out a good point that a canines feet follows its nose when ever one of these trap placement threads would get going, if his snout is in the hole, im pretty sure where his foot is gonna be within reason...... if you dont think so take and drop a small scrap so your dog has to pick it up....tells you alot.... using multiple focal points for foot movement at a set makes sence to me bill....in my first post catching those foxes by the back leg you might say the hole was a visual attractor and guide for an otherwise perfectly good urination type set, did it back then as an accident, try to do it now on purpose in other forms....jim
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2006 22:11:03 GMT -5
One thing I do when bedding in the peat moss like I've been using the last few (monsoon?!) trapping seasons is to use the trench type set. Peat is hard to bed a trap in, but is the easiest trap covering to obtain and use when it's wet. I just fill the trench with the peat and I hardly bed the trap at all. I keep the springs inline with the sides of the trench and about 6" to 7" back from the end of the trench, and I usually end up with the trap twisted slightly, with the dog at about at two oclock. I just twist the trap and push it down to bed it and then just cover the trap with more peat, I don't screw around too much with it. Then I brush a little ridge in front of where the dog is buried, with a slight depression over the pan. Total set is about 5 1/2 " wide and maybe 14" long.Then I make a little hole with a stake and put my lure in a holder at the end of the trench. Been getting few of them by both front feet in this set lately, it is self guiding. I like a bit of tension on my pans also, and smaller round pans. Hair triggers and deep or frosty coverings ,mean lots of misses and educated animals. I also run a few #2 and #11 dbl long springs in the woods for coon and canines. With these, I only use dirt hole sets with the dirt pattern in the V shape. I set so the animal steps over the loose jaw, when I set close to the hole. If the trap is back from the hole because the hole is slightly up-hill, or if I feel I'm getting lookers. I set the trap with the springs angled so the pan is off-set slightly to the right, back from the hole about 8"to 10". I guide with a twig next to the dog, which is now at about 2 oclock to the hole and to the right side. Keep in mind that my ideas are geared to mostly fox, or upland coon. We still get ten of them to every coyote we get a crack at.
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Post by jsevering on Mar 11, 2006 22:36:46 GMT -5
those trench sets are deadly, use a simular style trench and hole set, use the point of the "v" as my dog guide and urine post, poke hole with lure in the end of the trench and bait down the hole trench....... the center of both trenchs project out into the bed over the pan, like you said self guiding for fox or coyote...... using multiple focal points as bill mentioned, theres a ton of them out there and the only thing holding alot of the youngsters back is realising this stuff aint rocket science....jim
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Post by brushwolf on Mar 12, 2006 6:46:00 GMT -5
Trench set for works best for me also as far as dirtholes are concerned. More or less as bobber descibed. I will at times put some clumps of dirt etc. between the hole itself and the trap but thats probably more for my own piece of mind than anything else. I also dig my hole horizontally back as far as i can get it in. If ya ever read Russ Carmans fox trapping book "foxes by the 100s" my set would resemble what he calls the modified trench set. It has worked very well for me on both fox and coyotes. As far as flat sets go my trap placement is roughly 2" straight back from my lure/backing and that seems to work best for me. Good post here guys.
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Post by jsevering on Mar 12, 2006 9:21:55 GMT -5
theres alot to be said about slims comment on how a canines feet follows its nose, when it comes to flats and blind sets also...... pretty easy to put that thought to work on flats.... but how do you guys put it to use on true blind sets, to get foot movement or create a sweet spot.......I know when im tring to center the foot im looking for a spot where the animal and pretty much any animal with a few exceptions hit a spot were there is a compound twist they have to work through, not talking about a major twist, but one that would slow a lope and create a situation where the canines feet has to follow its head creating a sweet spot for foot placement........
remember trapping the woods with my father and uncle as a kid, one of their favorite sets was a plain urine post set in a skid road, they would drag a substantial tree branch in the roadway twenty five feet or so on either side of the set, both guides would be fifty to seventy five feet apart, but the straight shot would be directly over the set.....as a kid I didnt understand fully what they were doing...when I asked the reply was simply...... why take a chance....took me awhile to figure it out, but as bill can testify, im not the sharpest tool in the shed and Im not even allowed to play with them......jim
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2006 21:07:41 GMT -5
Don't use many blind sets for canines but a couple situations come to mind. One was where a tractor tire had squashed a bushel basket sized ant hill in half, at the corner of an opening that was the start of a road through a wooded strip on the edge of a field. The one end of this little rut had a slight downhill slope to it that led onto the woods road. A trap set on that end of this rut produced two grey's in three nights for me in 2003 season. No lure and if there was it would have been washed away. In fact the trap was bedded in anthill dirt soup. I think I would have caught another fox there but I caught someone's very large dog, and he destroyed that feature. That rut funneled them like mink in a narrow springrun. Have done the same thing with coon and fox in other tire ruts and dead furrows on field edges. A grapefruit size rock left in a wider rut and the trap set 6"to 8" ahead of it can be effective. Like Jim said, it's creating a twist to crowd the animal. I spend alot of time watching my beagle work cover and he also like to catch mice. In fact I pay close attention to mice and their habits. Learn most of my best stuff from the beagle and the mice.
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Post by mikespring on Mar 12, 2006 21:32:16 GMT -5
BBallou, If ya dont mind me asking.... what size traps are ya using? and are you targeting yotes with a few fox or the opposite?
Mike Spring
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Post by fingerlakesfur on Mar 13, 2006 15:02:01 GMT -5
Great thread Jim, I always center my trap to the attractor, significant to J.C. Conner's 1/3 rule.
Based on the theory, 1/3 of the predators step to the left, 1/3 will step to the right. If you set either side you miss 2/3 on the approach. Setting in the middle, you increase your chances to 2/3.
Seems to work for me. I had more misses when I was offsetting.
I subtlety pile debris on a dominate side and try to target a right or left foot depending on location, approach, wind etc.
Dale
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Post by bballou on Mar 13, 2006 20:26:18 GMT -5
Newt: Dont mind you asking at all. I use #3 dbl long spring----#2 monties-----1 3/4 victors and the old sq. jaw monties #2. I dream about foxes--- but around here it is mostly coyotes.It was back in the late 60's when the coyote appeared and the fox started to disappear.
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Post by Dave Leibig on Mar 13, 2006 20:43:01 GMT -5
I had the opportunity to take some lessons with Pete and Ron Leggitt down on Long Island. I attempted to make there step down set. Ron looked at my set and asked where is the animal going to step. The point that Ron was making was, my construction was too wide I needed to narrow the trench. Just that one tip improved my catches. It works in all kind of sets. Charlie Dobbins always had a depression over the pan for the animal to step. Like Bill said, give them multiple focal points. It keeps them stepping. the more they step the better chance to catch them.
Keep an Eye out for another trapping seminar on Long Island in the near future.
Dave
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Post by mikespring on Mar 13, 2006 20:44:17 GMT -5
BBallou, I notice you like to cut your pans down.... is there a paticular trap that you feel needs this more than others or do you do it to all your traps.
Mike Spring
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Post by bballou on Mar 14, 2006 18:11:42 GMT -5
Mike Spring: Sorry for the delay getting back to you, I am chaseing the N.Y. flat tail and a few muskrats. I cut about all my pans down. The reason is to have the animals foot between the jaws when the trap fires. There is nothing we can do about the trigger. but the 45 degree angle and 1 inch off center helps a little. If the animal has there foot on the jaw and pan when the trap fires I am sure you can see in your mind what will happen, especially the coyote, with there big feet.
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Post by mikespring on Mar 14, 2006 20:50:11 GMT -5
I understand your reasoning as to the size of the foot in relation to kill area...was just wondering at what jaw spread you would feel comfortable not reducing pan size, and you answered that for me, thank you .
I bought a dozen #2 dukes about 4 years ago and did`nt care for the pan size on them after a slew of snapped traps I cut the pans down and ended the problem. I have not had enough snapped traps with my #2 northwoods to see a reason to cut the pans on those....I could see benefits on reducing the pan on say a #1.5 montgomery or similar size trap especially if one was not to run adequate pan tension.
Mike Spring
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Post by jsevering on Mar 15, 2006 7:03:03 GMT -5
good point about loose big pans mike....... use to get fired up when I would see that a fox or coyote would miss the pan by a fraction of an inch with a toe nail....... only problem you knew were the rest of his foot was..... with certain traps...... would much rather have the chance to adjust with a guide and wait them out ....... jim
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Post by Rick on Mar 15, 2006 11:05:29 GMT -5
....and are you targeting yotes with a few fox or the opposite?
Why Mike? Think it would make a difference in a guy's train of thought on some of these subjects?
The written word on this subject....the 3-5 inches back, 7-9 inches back, offset left, offset right, stick here, dirtclod there.....always seemed like so much confusing mumbo-jumbo to me.
Seems to me that trap placement and guiding is WAY more art than science. Just a "feel" we develop that becomes a part of our own individual styles. I set my trap "right there", 'cause that's where I think he'll step. Guiding, for me, is very subtle. Done with a little whisk broom and a deft hand.....a "feel".
Many years ago I learned that the trap placement at dirtholes that worked the best for me was with the trap pretty much centered, and up tight to the hole. Then I realized I would sometimes get flipped traps from a fox hooking the jaw as he dug at the lip of the hole. So, I moved the trap back just far enough to keep a strip of "virgin" gound between the lip of the hole and the trap jaw.
And then.....they invented coyotes.
The big dogs caused me alot of grief, and detriment to my development as a fox trapper. I bought into the 7-9 inches, offset, blah, blah, blah mumbo-jumbo. I caught some coyotes...missed a few too. But it cost me a boatload of fox. So I tried to "split the difference" in regards to trap placement. BIG mistake.
So now I'm back. Trap pretty tight to the hole, and pretty much centered. Never took a tape measure with me....just a "feel". This is the set-up that works best for ME on my fox line. I don't believe it costs me coyotes....really feel like I hook up with most of the coyotes that investigate my set. If I were targeting mostly coyotes, with the occasional fox, I MAY feel differently.
The #1 thing I did to reduce my misses at dirtholes was to dig a deeper hole. A DEEP dirthole, with a QUALITY attractant at the bottom of it.....something they need to get out of there and see what it is....eat it, roll in it....not just a sniff and go.....will get them shufflin' their feet, and is the thing I credit with reducing my pattern misses more than any other.
Rick.
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Post by mikespring on Mar 15, 2006 12:44:32 GMT -5
"and are you targeting yotes with a few fox or the opposite"? I asked that question in relation to bill cutting the pans down....coyotes foot size in relation to the fox.
on step downs I am EXACTLY like you Rick....leave a virgin lip before the hole,and set tight to the lip. Yea that so many inches here or there doesn't work for me either. Flat sets are a hole nother ballgame tho.
I let my lure and eye appeal take over from there.
I know Jim S said don't just say wind... but that and as you stated Rick about depth of hole and putting something down it they want I think is 75% of the game, after location of course.
About time you showed up Rick...dont be a stranger!!!
Mike Spring
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Post by Rick on Mar 15, 2006 14:15:58 GMT -5
Been lurkin' a little bit. Good thread here though.
I agree the flat sets are different, and likely more prone to misses. I find myself so often setting in grass, that I rarely get a chance to make that well-blended flat set that I like so much. I do use a lot of what I call flat sets, that someone else may call something else.
I do believe either wild canine wants to put his nose almost directly on my attractor....and I need to put my trap pan under the spot where I visualize his foot being when he does so. I don't think trap placement at a flat set is any more difficult for me than at a dirthole.....but I do think it's more difficult to try and target both species with a flat set.
Rick.
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Post by jsevering on Mar 15, 2006 20:31:57 GMT -5
feel the same way about standard measurements, feel set construction...... be it variables within set types, along with the ground condition your working dictates trap placement and however you choose to guide..........
"I don't think trap placement at a flat set is any more difficult for me than at a dirthole.....but I do think it's more difficult to try and target both species with a flat set."
if you dont mind me asking, why do you feel that way rick........jim
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