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Post by fingerlakesfur on Mar 13, 2006 13:19:59 GMT -5
Going over my notes from this past season I noticed something interesting.
A high percentage of the coyotes I caught in Duke 1.75's were toe caught. I use this trap alot in areas of theft & places where there is a good chance of a gray or coon catch.
Set of choice for this trap, is a step down dirthole & traps have regular jaws with baseplates & d-rings center swiveled.
All the yotes toe caught were the hard fighting bucking bronco type. You know the ones that rear up and pump or leap straight up and down on all fours, real attitude.
The more docile dogs were all held firmly by a picture perfect pad catch in this same trap, same set, same scenario.
Are these hard fighting coyotes powering out of these traps down to the toes?......Or are they true toe catches, the hard fighting angle is just coincedence?
This brought me back to O'Gormans High Rolling fox book where he talks about center swiveled vs side swiveled traps. Craig states that center swiveled traps allow a coyote to initally turn the paw and eventually power out of the trap. Side swiveling allows the paw to find it's spot and stay put.
These traps are strong and I do not feel they are underpowered, because I know that would be a factor.
I just found this trend interesting and wondered what your thoughts were.
Dale
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Post by mikespring on Mar 13, 2006 15:40:56 GMT -5
There are too many variables to isolate one cause of toe catches.
For example....weather, pan tention,covering, the coyotes reaction the second the trap fires, size of trap in relation to the KILL area, chain length.
My opinion most toe catches are caused by the canines first or second lunge, during these first few lunges the dirt is knocked off the levers and out from between the jaws and when the jaws finally get a decent hold they grab the toes. I have noticed more toe catches when the weather wet and rainy.
Mike Spring
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Post by jsevering on Mar 13, 2006 15:41:07 GMT -5
Seems to me it would be hard telling not knowing how the foot started out between the jaws....... a few years back I purchased some duke 1.75's, had toe catches and pad catches both equally more or less........
the one thing I do know is the only mod was to change chain and swivels, the traps were side swiveled.......
I witnessed one power out with the traps, perfect across the paw catch, heard snap when the foot popped loose, stood there in disbelief.......
that same year we put a 22 into a coyote, dog went down, turned around to get the remake bag and heard snap, bridger 1.65 center swiveled with another what I thought was a perfect paw catch, coyote got away. know both coyotes were in the trap for awhile by the catch circle, the feet should of been set, but they were able to power out.
I'm probably not understanding right, but it would seem if your using a round jaw trap and center swiveling the trap and paw should line up...........
would like to understand the particular thoughts that went into the theory, maybe hes talking about foot slippage and inertia , but wouldnt that same slippage be there with a side swiveled trap until the foot set itself in the opposite corner or side?......jim
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Post by mikespring on Mar 13, 2006 16:30:41 GMT -5
Jim, I think when the coyote lunges on a center swivel set up he gets more of a solid pull agaist the trap itself before the levers have a chance to set.
When he lunges on a side swiveled set up I think the trap canters and the full force of the lunge is displaced throught the trap and chain setup allowing the levers a chance to set.
Mike Spring
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Post by jsevering on Mar 13, 2006 17:01:41 GMT -5
thanks mike......jim
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Post by nightowl on Mar 13, 2006 20:02:03 GMT -5
Dale,
It seems like more than a coincidence that the passive animals were all held by the pad but the aggressive ones were toe caught. A 1.75 is bare minimum for a coyote anyway and I think what we think is good spring strength is relative to the size of the animal in the trap. While a 1.75 will hold a majority of coyotes that get caught I doubt any of the guys that are in high coyote populated areas would want a stock 1.75 to be their main weapon. I understand why you use them where you do though and think it's smart to do it.
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Post by Dave Leibig on Mar 13, 2006 20:32:35 GMT -5
It looks like we have a great discussion here.
When you had these toe catches, did you notice any sign that the foot slipped in the trap? I would think that you would see either pulled hair or scraped paw damage. I had a few pull outs a few years ago. since then I modified all of my traps.
when it comes to center swivel vs side swivel. In my opinion when the trap is side swiveled the paw slides to the side of the lever and helps press the lever and has a lighter hold. Unless the trap is not base plated. In that case center swivel will bend the trap and cause an inferior hold.
Keep in mind that I base plate, 4 coil, laminate, use a very short chain, and lots of swivels
Dave
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Post by fingerlakesfur on Mar 14, 2006 9:57:52 GMT -5
I went back and re-read the O'Gorman text & Mike Spring you said it in a nutshell.
Distributed force on the trap in relation to chain hook-up.
Keep in mind Craig wrote this in the mid-late 1970's. Trap mods were in their infancy and the traps of choice, Victor, Northwoods, Montgomery were used stock with only chain and swivel mods.
He does mention the Sterling trap & how it holds the foot like a vise. This would be more consistant with the "elephant" traps used today on most coyote lines.
I do use large tricked out iron when yotes are dominate target. Thruway corridor south is heavy coyote country here, but the Lake Plains & apple orchards of the north shore are still red fox dominant.
When I can use smaller traps, I do. I sleep better at night.
Dale
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