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Post by jeckman on Jul 23, 2015 20:19:46 GMT -5
When you guys are using fresh bait, are you adding stuff to the meat or just plain meat? Most of the bait making stuff I see states it makes the meat very skunk , or strong and to me if I'm using fresh bait that's not what I want. When i say "natural" i mean nothing added... When you add other elements (skunk essence, mink gland, castor, on and on) you make an unnatural occurrence IMO... How many rabbits a yote ate that got mink gland? It ain't right.... I have way less pacing MF'ers with a natural bait over a lure or funked up purchased bait...
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Post by jeckman on Jul 23, 2015 20:23:51 GMT -5
Good conversation here, Jeck... Bunch of don't tell your neighbors what your doing folks round this place... Lol... I aint skeered i'll still out trap people and the whole while help the critters i wanna hunt by pushing myself and others TO KILL PREDATORS... Whats up 9? I know you like beaver meat/castor bait. Throw in some thoughts bud....
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Post by 9wire on Jul 23, 2015 21:37:32 GMT -5
Sure thing, Jeck...
Yep I like the beaver meat/castor bait (fresh - not tainted) but seem to use more beaver meat just plain-Jane... Also like good ol road killed (or not) rabbit for bait... Also deer scraps are the ticket too, especially around all the deadpiles that I trap around... I do think coyotes are more apt to work your set if everything is more natural, even if you're off location a little... However...LOCATION is KEY...and if you are on location they'll work most anything edible during the fur season, from dog food to a rotten cow... I'm talking about in high coyotes densities such as I'm used to only, mainly because that's the only place I've ever trapped... Maybe a lure type smell works better than bait in some places, but I doubt it... A coyote is a coyote and they all gotta eat...
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Post by papabear on Jul 23, 2015 22:21:09 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Jeckman, you stated: When i say "natural" i mean nothing added... When you add other elements (skunk essence, mink gland, castor, on and on) you make an unnatural occurrence IMO... How many rabbits a yote ate that got mink gland? It ain't right....
Variety is the spice of life.....I suppose if left with no alternatives a coyote could get by just eating rabbits. I'm not sure how long it would remain healthy though. You see just like most other critters including humans coyotes need different vitamins, minerals and nutrients to promote good overall health and trust me they wont get all they need by just eating rabbits or deer or any other type of meat. At this time of year a strict meat diet is not high priority on their menu. At this time of year most canines are eating a wide variety of foods such as plants/veggies, berries, nuts, and fruits as they become available along with their usual summer time insect and small rodent and varmint selections. They are highly opportunistic and will certainly take advantage of a readily available food source. Its not uncommon for canines to fill there bellies with grasshoppers one time and berries the next. They eat whatever is available wherever they happen to be at a certain time.
Now as summer passes and fall approaches the apples, nuts, and fall foods sources season is still prominent on the canines agenda. Why, because these foods they are craving and desire are high in fats and easy to get. They need to build a store of fat for warmth for the coming winter. As the winter approaches and temperatures get cold their diet and craving switches to one of high protein as provided from meats. A high protein diet is necessary for energy to hunt, sustain themselves and keep warm, as food get sparse and harder to aquire.
So in the beginning of trapping season it would appear that critters are sometimes not interested in some of your offerings. Understand food is still relatively easy to get and plentiful. I doubt that they are not interested as they will most likely check your location each time they travel through. I tend to believe their diet mindset is not that of what your offering. You need to think "match the hatch" as I posted before.
And just so you know, (skunk essence, mink gland, castor, on and on) are quite natural odors to coyotes, are very good additives and can add great value when used appropriately to enhance meat type baits. When used in combination they add an extra element that perhaps one single ingredient lacks to provide what's needed to seal the deal to get the critter to commit and make the final step needed to get itself caught.
Regards
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jul 24, 2015 5:21:30 GMT -5
papabear has it well explained. Ground mice with a touch or weasel or mink musk is highly attractive, ground muskrat with muskrat musk highly attractive, so is ground woodchuck with the late spring males musky glands included. All three of those are major, highly sought after natural prey sources here. The glands don't detract, they add value.
early season canines are not very hungry at all, so pure food attractants are of mild curiosity. Also, the vast majority of animals are yearlings at that time, which are highly curious and driven by pure instinct. Later on their percentage numbers are smaller versus surviving adults and scarcity of natural foods as season progresses.
A whole mouse or shrew down a hole with red fox gland is killer. So is a fox paw with coyote gland or urine. So is a strip of woodchuck hide with whatever gland/lure. Those are all curiosity combos that will pull canines in and keep their interest long enough to be caught.
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Post by 9wire on Jul 24, 2015 5:49:53 GMT -5
Glad I don't have to go through all of that... I live in a high population and high density area and bait is the only way to go from around mid October to about the first of February... Don't have weasels, muskrats, woodchucks, and very few shrews... The main prey here are rabbits, young wild hogs and wood rats. They are also feeding heavily on all the deer gut piles that are spread all over and deer that were not recovered after getting shot... The place to be (location!!) at that time is at large deadpiles located in the right places with most any type of good fresh bait... I use beaver because it's easy to snare a pile of them in a hurry..
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jul 24, 2015 6:07:36 GMT -5
^well, I'm quite sure what we use up here in NYS would work perfectly fine wherever you are down south there
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Post by jeckman on Jul 24, 2015 7:12:08 GMT -5
Agreed papa... Good write up.. I think the big word is opportunistic... Right now when you see scat its most likely gonna have grasshopper and raspberry parts to it.. But they bump into a lil fresh beaver theyr gonna spice things up a bit...
I've found the more i use a concocted bait/lure the less direct a yote will work a set. I mean that buy the more pacing activities. Pacers most times i see pace piss pace more then leave without working the set. Maybe next time threw go directly to the set...
9er i dream of your populations...
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Post by 9wire on Jul 24, 2015 7:46:43 GMT -5
Jeck, unless you have extremely thick woods and a good damage control plan to help thin them just a little, you wouldn't like it a lot...
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Post by hardwoodcharlie on Jul 24, 2015 19:14:24 GMT -5
Good thread men..how about presentation for example in the past I have had k9 walk right past or pace the edge of dirt holes baited and lured with top producing lures and just not commit,but use the same bait/lure at a flat set and it's a whole different storie...now if I put in a dirt hole and can't seem to get them to commit after several checks especially if I have connect in another trap at said location,a post or flat,I don't hesitate for a minute to stomp the dirt hole closed leve the trap right where it was bedded just make sure the whole set is level the distance between the trap and backing from old hole really does not seem to matter,perhaps they hesitate to walk on the coverd hole and stink and commit more to the bedded trap??? Not really 100%sure why but I have defiantly tipped the scales in my favor by doing so. So this has me wondering more times than onceif you are having commitment issues it might not have anything to do with bait or lure,it might be how it's presented.....just a thought
Charlie
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Post by jsevering on Jul 24, 2015 21:06:44 GMT -5
I would say presentation plays a large part in the mix, along with actual placement of the lure or lures, location to include windage, degree of familiarity, hole angles... on and on can play into it.
no doubt the trapper has to do his part also, especially if the lure or bait only holds or causes a mediocre curiosity or attraction to begin with ... testing different lures on our pen foxes we find very few lures hold a prolong interest.. because their or the foxes interest span is short lived for the most part. some have a very intense quick initial reaction... but no real up close repeat action or visits after the first up close snout full...kinda why knowing the dry down time is also important with lures, because there may be nothing there that holds them after that initial response ... very few lures get them pawing through and licking the air when they cant reach it... when its placed on the back side of the support post, along with repeat visits... when i get that reaction or close to it, im mostly looking for the repeat visits... or the interest span they show twoards it ... then i like taking a golf ball and smear some lure on the inside and toss it in... if it a race for it and the one that gets the ball goes in the box and all you can hear is crunching i figure its a decent lure...
charlie with you stomping the hole it may be, you peaked their curiosity some again... artistic license on the line is a good thing, especially when it works... jim
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Post by 9wire on Jul 24, 2015 21:40:38 GMT -5
Mr jsevering, what are your penned foxes reaction to a spoonful of fresh bait tossed on the ground by them??
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Post by jsevering on Jul 24, 2015 22:01:40 GMT -5
call me jim... think to much of the foxes to feed them on any commercial bait... god only knows what some of those yahoo's may of put in there, we do meat feed them for the most part, throughout hunting and trapping season... first thing they do is piss on it if they dont eat it right of way or its too large to eat at once... will or can tell you when bait shines here at least for me, the foxes will have a high sulfide content built up naturally in their urine that is very noticeable at that time of year... jim
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jul 25, 2015 5:02:17 GMT -5
while I've not yet had the pleasure of raising penned foxes (someday bucket list) I have studied untold hundreds of catch circles and no-catch set locations for days, weeks and at times even months afterward. Tracks in dirt and especially snow will teach you tons about fox (and coyote) behavior at sets if you take time to look really close. for instance, there is a serious fascination with aged blood pools and also urine soaked spots at set locations. Those points on interest will be padded with tracks from all compass points under heavy investigation. for some unknown reason, fox especially will approach bait/lure holes from the upwind = backside direction more than not. I always set traps with bait/lure presentation on the upwind side of prevailing direction, i.e. north or northwest of the trap. Upon later inspection long after those traps are gone and trap pattern backfilled in, the majority of fox prints blotted are upwind = backside of everything in a catch circle. Also, I have found early season baits that work best for me and one of those is a simple hard-boiled egg. I believe crushed egg shells at a dirthole to be the best visual attractant possible but no way to keep sharp-eyed scavenger birds away from such sets. However, if you totally hide a cracked = broken hard boiled egg in your dirthole, that will be worked by every fox thru if the set hasn't connected with another egg-lover first. No possible way to keep possums, skunks and coon off that as well. Lastly, I have used about every major brand of lure maker out there and have caught fur with all of them. However, none have ever elicited the degree of blown-out digging at dirt holes or flat sets as what I concoct myself... by random discovery it happens to be similar ingredients to what Mike Spring discovered on his own as we recently compared notes. Cannot speak for penned fox reaction, but there are components out there which will entice fox & coyotes to excavate earth for
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Post by 9wire on Jul 25, 2015 6:57:31 GMT -5
Thanks Jim. That answered my question...
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Post by greggwny on Jul 26, 2015 18:47:26 GMT -5
Maybe it was just an odd year but last winter the set that shined for me was just straight chopped or blended deer liver topped with some deer hair down a hole. No lure, no urine. My sets with lure were avoided like the plague.
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Post by hardwoodcharlie on Jul 27, 2015 19:08:06 GMT -5
while I've not yet had the pleasure of raising penned foxes (someday bucket list) I have studied untold hundreds of catch circles and no-catch set locations for days, weeks and at times even months afterward. Tracks in dirt and especially snow will teach you tons about fox (and coyote) behavior at sets if you take time to look really close. for instance, there is a serious fascination with aged blood pools and also urine soaked spots at set locations. Those points on interest will be padded with tracks from all compass points under heavy investigation. for some unknown reason, fox especially will approach bait/lure holes from the upwind = backside direction more than not. I always set traps with bait/lure presentation on the upwind side of prevailing direction, i.e. north or northwest of the trap. Upon later inspection long after those traps are gone and trap pattern backfilled in, the majority of fox prints blotted are upwind = backside of everything in a catch circle. Also, I have found early season baits that work best for me and one of those is a simple hard-boiled egg. I believe crushed egg shells at a dirthole to be the best visual attractant possible but no way to keep sharp-eyed scavenger birds away from such sets. However, if you totally hide a cracked = broken hard boiled egg in your dirthole, that will be worked by every fox thru if the set hasn't connected with another egg-lover first. No possible way to keep possums, skunks and coon off that as well. Lastly, I have used about every major brand of lure maker out there and have caught fur with all of them. However, none have ever elicited the degree of blown-out digging at dirt holes or flat sets as what I concoct myself... by random discovery it happens to be similar ingredients to what Mike Spring discovered on his own as we recently compared notes. Cannot speak for penned fox reaction, but there are components out there which will entice fox & coyotes to excavate earth for Austin I have thought many times about boiled eggs,just never got around to trying them,will definnatly give them a run this year.
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