traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Apr 9, 2015 9:56:54 GMT -5
Anybody trusting this council, the DEC or NYS..... Needs more than a head examination.....
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Post by redboneemily on Apr 9, 2015 10:17:38 GMT -5
This is Emily the houndswoman from the NYCC FRC. Jim P. and I did talk before he sent the controversial letter to the DEC. The letter was meant to be diplomatic, and to suggest changes. It was not meant to support or veto the proposed fisher plan. Somehow, communications failed between the NYCC president and the chair of the fur resources committee. That does not mean that NYCC has taken a position against the Trappers Association. The DEC solicits comment on proposed management plans and doesn't have to have any particular outside organization's support, but doesn't like to rock the boat, either. Anyone, including every member here, is free to send comments to the DEC. While the official deadline has passed, I encourage every individual on this list to send in comments anyway. Soon. Regardless of deadlines, its possible to influence the plan still. Speak your minds, in numbers, and DEC will hear. You don't need the NYCC to speak for you, although that would be nice. Try to keep your focus on the flaws in the plan as proposed, not on unsubstantiated accusations of conspiracy, other organizations, etc., and offer alternative approaches that the DEC actually has the power to implement. Use your spell checker. send your comments to wildlife@dec.ny.gov I think the proposed plan is deeply flawed. That doesn't mean the DEC is going to listen to me, especially if I am the only individual speaking up. As a hound person, my perception of the flaws may differ from yours. But if enough people offer reasonable critiques of their plan, they will make at least some adjustments.
p.s. I run hounds for myself. I don't run them for the DEC. I try to keep relations with DEC cordial enough so they occasionally give my name to people looking to run bears off. I run hounds because I love doing it and I observe all sorts of things outdoors (and occasionally indoors) that I would never notice without them.
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Post by jsevering on Apr 9, 2015 10:37:07 GMT -5
didn't say i agree with the council procedure, what happened or the response or even trust anyone... i don't.... i believe what he said transpired between him and emily, in regard to my previous post and what my post was based upon... pure and simple... im not going to hide that fact, if i believe it to be so... if my head needs examining so be it... i still have to meet my maker... jim
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2015 10:38:48 GMT -5
To many jumps out of a plane Jim.
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Post by jsevering on Apr 9, 2015 10:52:16 GMT -5
maybe so aj... jim
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Post by jdpaint on Apr 9, 2015 11:24:06 GMT -5
Mine to 82 , wasnt that long ago I asked people to donate beaver carcass to the region # 4 biologist and the fisher study ! SOB ! That hurts .
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Post by redknot on Apr 9, 2015 12:04:44 GMT -5
Okay Jim S., what I heard regarding the amendments to parts 6.2 and 6.3 goes like this:
Part 6.2(a)(2) reads - December 11 to February 15 5A, 5C, 5F, 5G, 5H, 5J, 6A, 6C, 6F, 6G, 6H, 6J, 6K and 6N. Body-gripping traps set on land may not be set with bait or lure.
Highlighted will be moved to 6.3…
Therefore, 6.3 will essentially say, in the NZ body grip traps set on land may not be set with bait/lure during a closed fisher/marten season.
Having this language a part in 6.3 rather than 6.2 would allow DEC to make later season changes without going through the reg change process each time... I am pretty sure this section of the reg is specific to the Northern Zone only...
The kicker here is if fisher/marten season opens later than raccoon et al. some body gripping traps would not be allowed baited until fisher (marten?) season opens...Again, I believe this would only include Northern Zone, but certainly something which needs to be considered if suggesting splitting fisher/coon seasons...
Perhaps someone else (JTI People) can fill in what I am missing or wrong about...Jim P
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 9, 2015 13:23:10 GMT -5
I wish to respectfully respond to Miss Redboneemily. It is my opinion that the New York State Trappers Association (NYSTA) should take the lead on all trapping related matters in the state. I would also think that the NYS Houndsmen should take the lead 0n all hound hunting issues. I think that the NYS Conservation Council should take a supportive role to organizations like these; NOT the other way around. There lies the problem! Certainly I do not know what transpired between Mr.Redknot and the President of the Council. I have no problem with Mr.Redknot expressing his opinion, however I have considerable heartburn that the letter was presented as representative of the FRC or the Council.In particular since the Council was appraised of the NYSTA/JTI position long before the comment period ended. The JTI Committee's comments represented a unanimous opinion from each of the Committee members and the committee does have the authority to represent NYSTA when dealing with DEC. Personally, as an Adirondack Fisher Trapper, my feeling is that before DEC rushes to "Do Something" they should have their facts together and at this point the science simply is not there. If and when DEC has performed the science similar to what they performed in the southern tier, to determine actual Adirondack fisher populations and ability of the population to sustain itself, and it scientifically mandates a season shortening or closure I would be the first to support it. What I see now is a classic case of over reaction without all of the information in hand. Why has DEC chosen to pick and choose the supporting documentation listed in the draft? Why was the important Nathan Roberts study omitted? Regardless of how this all shakes out I can never support quotas other than for Pine Marten. That establishes a dangerous precedent not only for fisher, but other New York species and DEC has indicated they intend to use them. Mr.Redknot is certainly entitled to his "conservative" position. I think differently and feel that it undermines the JTI comments.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2015 14:41:36 GMT -5
If an organization was misrepresented by another organization, one party usually sues the other.
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Post by redknot on Apr 9, 2015 15:20:00 GMT -5
Papabear, prior to any reg change there will be a 45-day comment period allowing additional comments per DOS. The notification will be in the NYS Environmental Notice Bulletin and I am sure people here will be watching for that...
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Apr 9, 2015 18:45:46 GMT -5
Anybody trusting this council, the DEC or NYS..... Needs more than a head examination..... My statement was not directed at anybody here- I have talked thru here or in person quite a few- And I have respect for all- Met or unmet- Whether I agree or disagree with you. Except for that guy that said a trap can't be bedded in peat.. My comment was about all the backstabbers there are saying "We are here to help" (This council (wtf are they anyway?) NYS and everybody's fav- the DEC)- The otter "issue" and 330s should have been enough to see that the powers that be DO NOT CARE about consumptive users of wildlife in NY. And out of hunting, fishing and trapping- Guess what comes in last? They won't touch fishing, for now anyway. Fishing is still "PC" enough to $ell. Do we have "Free Hunting Days"? Name, rank and serial number and follow the law to the letter. Give them the same as they "give" us.....
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Post by jsevering on Apr 10, 2015 7:07:38 GMT -5
I haven't formulated any opinions on the amendments, but I think you know my feelings about fooled once... ................................................................................................................
jim this is the question, i would like you to answer...
i sent you my fisher management letter so you know exactly where i stand.. with my feelings of fool me once... your free to show it to emily or whoever on the counsel as its only an opinion letter of a lay person, end user of the actual harvest opportunity this plan will no doubt directly affect ... one with views that may or may not of been voiced to the council... i hope you take the time to actually read it and digest it, before you answer me, i would like answer.. thank you ... jim
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Post by bobsamuelson on Apr 10, 2015 16:30:08 GMT -5
I have not posted on this topic as I read through all of the posts and have to some conclusions:
I don't know the number of trappers that spend significant amount of time hunting during deer season. I do know, that many of those that are "die hard" deer hunters have a "less than favorable opinion" of trappers and trapping! That being said, I have hunted deer, but it has been a few years. I know for a fact, that I know more about hunting deer than most deer hunters know about trapping! So, when it comes to other groups voicing an uninformed opinion on the fisher plan, where did they get their information? From the guy in their group that trapped rats when he was a kid? Trappers, by far, have a better understanding of what is going on in the fields and woods than a majority of the hunting public! How can I make that claim, you ask? Easy! Many trappers have traps set for the whole season, which means they are out, in the field every day! There are, no doubt, some who hunt every day, but I don't believe it is very many! It's raining! No tree stand today, but the trapper still has to check traps! It's blowing and snowing! No tree stand today! But the trapper...you get my point! Since many trappers may hunt for a few days, while still checking traps every day, have a better handle of what is happening in the woods.
I find it very disingenuous that those who have very little stake in the game, didn't check with NYSTA or the JTI committee as to what was in the best interest of the trapping community, as a whole, while voicing opinions that come right out of the QDM handbook! Not understanding the ramifications to placing "bag limits" or "quotas" on any species without any scientific backing sets a very bad precedent! Whats next? Otters? Muskrats? Deer with racks smaller than meets the "trophy" standard? Looking at the plan, but changing the species from fisher to any other species, it is easy to see the disastrous precedent that could be set for all species in NY!
We all need to be in this together! Whether it is the fisher plan, the upcoming otter plan or the upcoming deer plan! I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but we need cross communication between organizations if we are going to continue to enjoy the abundant resources available to us all!
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Post by Olde Trapper on Apr 10, 2015 17:19:16 GMT -5
When I first read this Thread there were 32 posts and now there are 62, not counting my take on this situation. In every sense it is a "Hot Topic"" and will get attention from many.
Like many NY Trappers, I am not happy at all with DEC's so-called study and I do not feel confident that they are actually listening to Trappers anymore than they listen to Deer Hunters. Their recent Deer Hunting surveys sent out to a minimal number of hunters to determine hunting that affects all deer hunters is ample evidence of that flawed process! They obviously listen to the Birders and in plain English backed right down and "adjusted" their previously biologically supported and sound approach to eliminating the Mute Swan....an invasive species!
In any event, I do know this undeniable truth.........We Trappers are outnumbered and need all the support we can get to maintain trapping in this State (NOT JUST FISHER TRAPPING) ! While the majority of respondents (myself included) to this thread are not at all pleased with DEC's "Study" results and/or the New York State Conservation Council's position we are beating up an invaluable Ally in the New York State Big Picture and obviously I'm referring to the NYCC. !
I would strongly suggest that we seriously consider what we are going to gain by continuing this harangue of the NYCC and consider a more diplomatic approach to getting them to modify their stance. We may fail and have to lick our wounds, but that's just a battle that we lost, not the "war"..........
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Post by flatiron on Apr 10, 2015 20:07:03 GMT -5
This isn't the first or last blunder made the by the council! Year round coyote season, antler restrictions, full crossbow priveledges during archery season and most likely a few more days of deer hunting will be next .
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Post by jsevering on Apr 11, 2015 5:46:15 GMT -5
a conservative and good faith plan or approach to the new plan would of been finish up your two decade long last plan, see where we are and go from there... just a thought .... jim
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Post by k9goodtimes on Apr 11, 2015 6:51:50 GMT -5
Yeah, like we really expect a conclusion to the otter plan? I've written that off as a "Will never happen in my lifetime" event. Its been closed longer than its been open in my life. Great point though Jim, how about finishing one plan before bombarding us with 2-3 others. Or is that part of their diversion technique? Watch the Fisher plan in the left hand while the otter plan in the right hand slaps you in the face.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 11, 2015 10:15:24 GMT -5
I could be wrong, but it appears to me that DEC will not be able to implement the fisher plan in 2015. I have to laugh, they talk about an emergency situation in the Adirondacks, yet because of their own inefficiency and red tape look how long it took to get the plan out for public review. Before they can implement the plan it still must be presented through the NYS Register with another 45 day comment period. Getting that done at this date in time for printing of the hunting/trapping syllabus appears more and more unlikely. So much for the emergency. Regarding the otter closure in the catskills and mohawk valley for two decades I don't know how DEC can look any of us in the eye. A closure of that duration is no management at all, especially when there was no need to close the season in the first place. It has been so long that the guy that closed the season has retired. We have heard one lame excuse after another: completion of college studies; etc. and still no reopening of the season. Have otters become DEC's new "Sacred Cow"? It is more and more apparent to me that the DEC's biologists are very bright when it comes to their biological training, but don't have a lick of common sense when it comes to knowledge on trapping. Recently I attended a seminar attended by these guys and it was most interesting to see how many were unfamiliar with setting the various types of traps. And these are the guys that are mandating how they are to be used! I remember the trigger testing at Hale's Creek field station and the resulting 330 trigger regulations. Not one bit of concern that they were less humane in the capture of beavers, just as long as we protected those relocated otters. That guy has retired too. Does anyone remember when they were feeding the otters being held at Cornell with great lakes chemically contaminated salmon? It was not DEC, but an ESF Professor and grad students that dumped those Yukon lynx into the high peaks where there was no food. No wonder they all took off for parts unknown. My point is that these biologists can have their condescending attitudes all they want, but with examples like above, and their refusal to listen to common sense suggestions from the trappers, it is most difficult to maintain respect! If I'm right about dates of implementation of the fisher plan there could be close to a year to re-work the plan, put aside our differences, and hopefully put together a plan mutually beneficial to the species as well as to trappers. Sadly, DEC has told us that completion of the fisher plan followed by a Pine Marten plan will take place before they start on the otter plan. One excuse after another."Sacred Cow" is sounding more and more realistic!
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Apr 12, 2015 15:49:56 GMT -5
"It was not DEC, but an ESF Professor and grad students that dumped those Yukon lynx into the high peaks where there was no food. No wonder they all took off for parts unknown."
How many remember THAT ONE??? We were going to have lynx everywhere- living hand in hand with the land... I can't remember 100%, but didn't everyone of them die? Or did they get out?
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Apr 12, 2015 16:01:23 GMT -5
Now one of the dingbats is now a PROFESSOR at ESF- "Environmentalist Rainer Brouck spent years studying the habitat before any of the animals in the biologists' plan were released into the Adirondacks. Even though it failed miserably- He is still optimistic.. "It was a very, very big project that took a lot of effort," said Brouck, who is a professor at the state University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry in Syracuse." lynx.uio.no/lynx/nancy/news/ny_top.htmAnd these are the people Mr Paintedpaw is talking about- No clue as to what they are talking about- Even though they have "studied it extensively" Here a NYT piece from 1987 - www.nytimes.com/1987/04/23/nyregion/after-100-year-absence-shy-lynx-is-returning.htmlNow this may not be on topic, per se, but what it does show is the pattern of complete ineptness of those dictating how the state's wildlife is managed.. And this counsil following their lead.....
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Post by mole on Apr 12, 2015 16:06:48 GMT -5
The lynx restoration plan was a flop. some got killed by cars on the Northway one was killed in New Hampshire raiding a farmers chicken coop one was in a park down near Syracuse.
The head of the restoration plan revisited the area a few years later.
He wrote in the Watertown Daily Times.
I saw no lynx , I saw no tracks or scat of any lynx, but
I believe the lynx population is thriving.
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Apr 12, 2015 17:25:35 GMT -5
"He wrote in the Watertown Daily Times.
I saw no lynx , I saw no tracks or scat of any lynx, but
I believe the lynx population is thriving."
That sums up EVERYTHING!!!
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 12, 2015 23:06:41 GMT -5
Between 1988 thru 1991 83 Yukon Lynx were released in the Airondack high peaks. This was as a result of efforts by a group of ESF scientists, DEC Wildlife Biologists and others known as the Adirondack Wildlife Program (AWP). The actual releases included some ESF grad students and the program was funded by the New York State Legislature. If my memory serves me correctly each Lynx cost $ 1000. Sadly, but fortunately for New York trappers none appear to have survived. Had they become established New York would be facing the same mess that Maine has because Lynx are a Federally protected species.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 7:10:10 GMT -5
Its funny how the DEC imports and expands animals they feel are "historic" yet in March they banned importing gold fish into NY as an Invasive species. And these people have what many consider good jobs at the tax payers expense.
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Apr 13, 2015 10:53:39 GMT -5
Between 1988 thru 1991 83 Yukon Lynx were released in the Airondack high peaks. This was as a result of efforts by a group of ESF scientists, DEC Wildlife Biologists and others known as the Adirondack Wildlife Program (AWP). The actual releases included some ESF grad students and the program was funded by the New York State Legislature. If my memory serves me correctly each Lynx cost $ 1000. Sadly, but fortunately for New York trappers none appear to have survived. Had they become established New York would be facing the same mess that Maine has because Lynx are a Federally protected species. Can you imagine??? The ENTIRE Adirondack Park would be closed to everything other than looking out a car window as you drive through.....
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