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Post by johnm on Jan 23, 2015 8:37:23 GMT -5
Kirkwooder, prior to the first encounter with this guy back in Dec. I have never met him. Last time I saw a ECO in the field was probably 15 years ago, I was tracking a wounded deer that someone hit and didnt follow up. All he even asked me was what I was doing and if I had a doe tag, didn't even look at it. I know the landowner where the deer were dumped, I also know who dumped them, they coyote hunt over them but it isn't my place to tell the officier who dumped them. The property where the 'untagged' trap was I have permission to trap the property there (even thou these 3 were in a ditch and a town ROW). I am not that great a trapper so I can't see it being a jelous trapper having an issue. I do ok deer hunting but I purposefully target bigger bucks and turn up allot of small bucks which the other folks hunting around me kill. Most of my bucks I kill in the next county east of me. I am fairly closed lipped about what I do kill so as not to cause any envy. I honestly can not see someone else having an issue with me or my trapping. Austin captured my concerns above. #1) landowners don't need this guy asking questions about me - it would be too easy for me to lose the few other properties I have. #2) I can not afford to lose my hunting/trapping license - like most here it is my sanity.
I had a friend who is in law enforcement do some digging. He is finding #1 - this guy doesn't typically write up this 'type of ticke't #2 - givien that 2 ECO's were there he had a plan to pinch me that morning when they left. #3 the fine can be up to $250 plus sucharges and POINTS against my hunting/trapping license... it is disturbing that he had his backup with him to make an arrest because everyday I have checked those 3 traps and my footprints were the only ones going there... He did not find this trap and then get a backup to make the arrest. In my buddys words 'he was gonna get you for something'. By the way my buddy isnt a low level guy either.
I am starting to feel I need to fight this (fight is a strong word) and explain the facts to the judge. My challenge as you probably can tell is I am not the most English savy speaking individual - y'all wont believe it but I do have an Engineering Degree - math has always clicked by English nope! So I have to really prepare and find a way to stick to the pertent facts. I dont want to appear as bashing this guy. So do I bring up the other stuff (primarily the landowner thing as if needed I have other peoples word there - yet they wont be there in court. And it appears at least to me his intent to 'get me'. I have the farmer who leases the land and gave me permission and the landowner. Thing is he didnt write me up for that just got me booted. But as Austin stated = how was that his roll to do such. Why did he do that?
I hope this isnt petty and I am being a pain in everyones butt, it just bothers me as I try to play by the rules and dont like the bad look that this creates. Could I have done things different yup I could have and will, but those traps being froze in ice and being checked daily, I don't feel were breaking the law or any fair chase ethics. One thing I have learned is to be careful what you do say to these guys even thou it may give the impression I am hiding something. Heck I brought this guy into my house, I don't have anything to hide....
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Post by johnm on Jan 23, 2015 8:37:38 GMT -5
Oh for what it is worth I swear to the trapping Gods above the information I have provided is the honest truth as far as I know it.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 23, 2015 8:50:10 GMT -5
imo... I'd begin with the incident at hand. Explain the timeline from trap setting to daily checking to ECO encounter. Describe how all were tagged the same, how you inspected the site daily, how the ECO removed the only trap of three from iced in that happened to be allegedly untagged.
then I would wait for the response and reaction from ECO and judge, elaborate from there. I would definitely discuss prior encounters with ECO, including his self-initiated contact with landowners about permissions. That clearly shows a proactive intent to charge you with something. His recent behavior is not simple enforcement of laws... he is conducting investigations where no crime has been reported.
I would be civil, matter of fact, apologetic but resolute in the fact that all traps were tagged upon setting and remained that way while locked in ice. What may have happened during the removal process while chopping with an axe is questionable.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Jan 23, 2015 9:16:53 GMT -5
um, one thing that I can't get resolved in my head - HOW can it be proven that an untagged trap IS yours? For all you know someone may well have taken it. You mention that there were other (unchecked) traps nearby... one of those, maybe? Was your missing trap perhaps stolen by someone else, and when presented with that untagged trap you just 'fessed up and claimed it? If I'm trapping right alongside you, and we both have 110's out, and all the tags are removed, which traps are mine and which are yours? A 110 is a 110 is a 110 all day long provided the brand is the same. I would have (MAYBE!! ) replied, "Nope, no tag, can't be mine." I know, I know - hindsight is 20/20. Seriously, bring the Captain or your "not a low level guy" friend with you. It MAY go a long way... and at least it proves to the ECO, who may or may not need the proof, that you've got such friends. It may end with that and leave you in peace for the future.
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Post by topdog on Jan 23, 2015 9:18:25 GMT -5
Sometimes the Encon acts as the DA and other times it is the DA, confusing yes, I have witnessed this several times. They just want your money period. Things usually go better for ya when it's the regular DA and not the Encon. The Encon will offer you a civil compromise package, no strikes on your license just money, that is all they want. I would definitely go to court even if it has no affect on the ticket it shows you have respect for yourself, the next time that guy rolls up on ya talk about the weather, I wouldn't quit trapping or hunting that ground because of this incident, pay your fine, lick your wounds and move on, that little fine was worth it for the education you just received, talk less.
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Post by silverfox on Jan 23, 2015 9:28:07 GMT -5
just FYI, my son had a similar experience last season (ticketed for untagged trap) long story short (not going to go thru all the details but in the end the ECO was mistaken and failed to follow proper protocol as far as chain of custody of trap in question), trap WAS tagged but tag was removed when trap was taken by a local, my son took the high road (after some good advice from folks on this forum) documented the facts only in chronological order, presented his side to the judge respectfully with facts only, never got "belligerent" with ECO (even though she was a bit disrespectful) judge threw out the ticket after all the facts were laid on the table, the ECO has not made an appearance on my sons trap line (same location) this season....in the end it was a lot of un-necessarily wasted time and effort on his (my sons) part, but "the system" did what its intended to do and in the end "justice prevailed"......
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Jan 23, 2015 10:33:29 GMT -5
Refreshing to hear!
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Post by countryboynwco on Jan 23, 2015 10:34:54 GMT -5
The issue in court here is it is going to be 2 Eco against one trapper! The best thing to do is be respectful wait your turn to speak, only speak to the judge when spoken to ! Get there early, respect the court no hat, don't be looking at your watch your, your phone,blah blah. I has a friend who was a judge these things seem silly but judges notice ! Great him as your honor, and answer with yes sir no sir audibly and make eye contact ! That being said just because this guy is an Eco does not mean he is OK with trapping himself, not bashing but their are Eco's out there who are anti's ! I make it a point to know before the season what Eco's work what parts of what county I will be in ! I have an Eco in the county right now whom I called upon to tag a bobcat for me and his exact words after the tagging process were I don't necessarily agree with trapping and would prefer you call another officer next time !
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Jan 24, 2015 12:17:08 GMT -5
Not surprised by any of this at all. Best of luck. Agree with tmc- No tag, not my trap
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Post by graydog on Jan 24, 2015 15:07:29 GMT -5
You lied to him the first question he asked and now you expect him to believe you. Makes perfect sense to me. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Once credibility is lost it takes quite a while to get it back. Fight it but make sure you're prepared to pay the fine.
He's doing his job and being suspicious of people caught in a lie is part of it. As far as contacting the landowner it sounds to me like he knows the people in the area. Good for him. Just a different perspective and trappers can't always sing Kumbaya.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 24, 2015 15:22:19 GMT -5
As far as contacting the landowner it sounds to me like he knows the people in the area. Good for him. . no it ain't good for him... wrong for him and every other ECO to go around conducting blind investigative measures on who does/does not have permissions wherever. That is not an ECO's role of law enforcement. There was no report of unlawful trespass, therefore no reason for one single second on the taxpayer's clock for wrongful investigation.Based on what the OP has shared here and if completely true, it strongly appears said ECO has been on a personal quest to find anything wrong wherever possible and perhaps even stepping beyond where nothing wrong exists. Considering this topic was enough to coax your second post ever here, it might be that you are an ECO or somehow sympathetic to law officers. None of us are anti-ECO in this thread. But there are proper and improper roles to be played on both sides. The OP lied about cutting some bait off discarded deer carcasses? Clearly that ECO does not work the southern tier counties where I am, he'd have died from nervous breakdown before the first deer season patrol had ended dealing with hundreds of discard piles everywhere.
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Post by trappermac on Jan 24, 2015 17:22:54 GMT -5
Why would you let your sets become buried under 10 inches of ice? How were you able to actually check them under 10 inches of ice? Could it be the ECO saw this as neglect and decided to click your heels a bit, write you up for something? He obviously has a concern about someone who hasn't checked a trap in three weeks whose trap is not tagged otherwise that would have been taken care of already. You were evasive once, he may think you're being evasive about the unchecked trap and he's going to click your heels one way or the other. I'm not saying that trap is yours, but that ECO may suspect it is.
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Post by bluetickboy on Jan 24, 2015 17:38:28 GMT -5
John, You know if you had come run coyotes with me that day, and did a later trap check, none of this would have happened! Priorities man! And you missed a hell of a run today! Ice fishing? Seriously? LOL Plead not guilty with an explanation.That's all you can do.
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Post by graydog on Jan 24, 2015 18:04:42 GMT -5
If you believe the ECO has exceeded his authority and/or harassed the original poster then suggesting a formal complaint may be in order.
And I am not an ECO but I do believe that honestly is the best way to deal with anyone in a position of authority.
Wow, now I have 3 posts. lol
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Post by homebuilt on Jan 24, 2015 19:19:56 GMT -5
I see no wrong doing at all by the original poster. officer asked him what he knew about the deer carcasses. I take that question as did the op dump the deer. the officer never asked if he had taken a piece of meat off of it to use as bait! even if he did (yes I know he did per his post) who care's, from what I know that's not illegal. if it is I am as guilty as he is. as far as the day he got "nailed" the "officer" happened to pull the one out of three traps that didn't have a tag. why didn't he chop out and check the other two trap's? the only time he has a "partner" with him is the day he happens to find a unmarked trap? I could keep going on and on, i'm not anti law enforcement but this is the crap that ticks me off, a all out abuse of power for one's own purpose!!!
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Post by ron finewood on Jan 24, 2015 19:26:55 GMT -5
As far as the k-9 traps on the land where the owner doesn't want them---------I was told by a DEC officer AND a lawyer, that the LESSEE has control of the property, IF they pay money for the lease. so----if farmer Dave leases the land, and pays for that lease, then he can give you permission to trap on that land--UNLESS - it is specifically stated in the lease that there will be no trapping. Example: I lease an apartment from you. I invite your ex-girlfriend over to play house. You don't like it because you still want to play house with her. There is nothing you can do about it -- unless it says in our lease that there will be no playing house with "Gertrude". btw--- Gertrude is very good at playing house! HAr, Har, HAr.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Jan 24, 2015 20:10:24 GMT -5
True - look at the hunting reg's, page 16 for rights of lessees. If they're paying the rent they've got the right. Or at least it seems to be implied. Or maybe not... After all, it's magnificently clear as mud on purpose to allow for just such "discretionary actions."
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Jan 24, 2015 20:11:31 GMT -5
And yes I know I've pointed out "hunting" but it should be across the board for "pursuit of game." Which includes trapping. ...you would think...
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Post by johnm on Jan 24, 2015 20:42:46 GMT -5
Hey Graydog, I dont know you and you dont know me so I am not offended by your posts...... I do have to ask thou, if you were approached by an ECO and you knew who put carcasses on land you have permission to trap and hunt and you also know THEY have permission to coyote hunt it would you blow them in? I admit I should have said I knew about the bait pile and took from said pile (which is illegal).... Next question I think would have been ' do you know who put them there?' How would YOU have answered?
Yup those guys have a tough job, but ya know what, part of the job is determining the bad gays from the not so bad guys, personally I believe when you assume everyone is a bad guy it is time to find a different profession... I am a Quality Engineer - if I assume every product or process is bad, my company doesnt ship anything and goes out of business, yet it is my job to assure ALL product is good. Most of us have difficult jobs, right?
My bad was taking stuff from a legally placed bait pile = he didnt write me up for that.... HE did manage to get me booted from land that I had permission to trap ( the farmer happens to be the town Supervisor and the leasee of the land - who the landowner has given him tags that hang on folks rearview mirrors to acknowledge that HE has given hunting permission on said land) The ECO also wrote me up for not having a tag on a trap that WAS tagged when I placed it, could thios happen to you? a week ago I would have said NOT to me.... As far as checking those traps - in my opinion there was no way those traps could catch any animal when incased in 10" of SOLID ice.... and my thought was confirmed when WE dug at two of the traps.... also I offered to take him to each of my sets to view each of my traps for tags..... Again you don't know me and I not you, but one thing I can tell you about me is I goose hunt in a group that for 15 years plus we have included any geese we feel we 'hit' as part of our bag limit, does that make us hero's - nope -but this is the type of ethics we impose on ourselves. This is part of what bothers me, I try to play by the rules best I can, yet in this case I got a ticket for what I feel I didn't deserve.
I understand that there are 'good' (prolly not the right word as it has various meanings) sportsman and bad sportsman, can you agree that there are also 'good' law enforcement professionals and bad as well.... Not saying he was or is a bad person, BUT ... I (the only person of all of us including him) knows the trap WAS tagged. I didnt ask for sympathy as I know you guys are smart enough to know there are two sides of every story.... All I asked for was advice, given my side of the story..... I am thankfull that I feel I have gotten that advice - and I also understand it is NOT legal advice, rather personal advice.... BUT you guys are fellow trappers and I respect ALL of the opinions. And Blueticboy is right - I should have checked my traps prior to sun up and gone coyote hunting with him - he has great dogs and we (at least I ) have had a great time listening to his dogs music.
Thanks guys, I respect all the input you have given and hope I can make this fraternity proud.
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Post by johnm on Jan 24, 2015 20:52:48 GMT -5
Also as I am sure you guys know ECO's read these forums as well as other forums - I know that as well. AND the ECO in question knows this case - if I were lying I am sure he would put me #1 on his list - NOT the case.....
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Post by johnm on Jan 24, 2015 21:12:07 GMT -5
Ron, do you really know Gertrude?
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 24, 2015 21:28:02 GMT -5
Ron, do you really know Gertrude? we need pictures of Gertrude! and unless a hunting lease specifically states no trapping, trapping is lumped in with hunting rights to the leasee. I know this to be 100% fact as a leasee and one who is granted rights to trap a local hunting lease. One of many good reasons why an ECO should NEVER take it upon themselves to question everyone's access to private lands without formal complaint of trespass filed by the land controller, first.. Way overstepped bounds there.
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Post by erict on Jan 24, 2015 21:52:17 GMT -5
If you get bad service at a restaurant most people would ask to see the manager. Every ECO has a supervisor (manager) - the phone numbers are even in the Hunting guide. Pick up the phone and discuss your issue like gentlemen used to do in the old days. Good luck.
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Post by graydog on Jan 24, 2015 22:28:05 GMT -5
I have no idea if you saw who placed the carcasses. I only know what I see or in the case of these forums what someone has posted. What I would have told him is that the first day I noticed the carcasses was (x days ago) and I cut a couple of hunks to use as bait. There is no need to get nervous when talking to an ECO and if you do it is normal human natural for someone to be suspicious if they pick up on it. Over compensating by offering information that wasn't pertinent only gave him reason to be more suspicious. Warranted or not your actions created some of that suspicion. We live an we learn. As far as the trap tag. I didn't see you set the trap and I didn't see him check it. Good luck and whatever happens put it behind you.
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Post by johnm on Jan 24, 2015 23:29:00 GMT -5
Hey graydog, you sound familiar, do I know you?
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