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Post by johnm on Jan 22, 2015 12:20:25 GMT -5
I have had the pleasure to see my local ECO officier three times in the last month.... First time I was setting a k9 set and down he comes. Asks me what I know about the deer carcases and hides next to the road 100 yards from me. My bad but I first told him didn't know anything about em... Fact is I had taken a chunk from one of the necks of the deer for bait, WRONG for me to lie, I was nervous as I knew it could be a problem.... later in our conversation I came clean and told him I took stuff from them for bait. He got PO'ed for me lying, rightly so. Checked me over good, couldn't find anything wrong with my sets. Asked about my other baits - told him they were scraps from deer I had shot (the truth). Invited him to my house to show him the deer I just finished processing. Wanted him to see it wasnt dumped in the pile next to the road.... He looked over my collection of heads and asked questions. Nuttin to found. I appoligized for first lying to him and we actually seem to be getting along well. I told him where all my sets were and welcomed him to follow me on a check. He said no need.
Fast forward 2 weeks. I saw where someone had pulled over where I pull over to check a couple sets. Fresh foot prints in the snow going toward my traps. The foot prints stayed clear of my sets 5 foot away. As I get to the road it is the ECO. Asks me what I am doing. Checking traps. Oh ok didnt know who's sets those were, all seemed good as it was friendly conversation... I drive down the road to check a mink set. On my way back he waves me down. Said 'hey I am not looking to make trouble, but before I saw you I called Mary - - - -- (someone), she owns this land and is against k9 trapping. I said wait, just two weeks ago I stopped at the farm and asked Dave for permission to trap and he said no problem.... ECO tells me yeah but he leases it and she owns it, can you call her later to see if she is ok with you trapping. Me - sure I will do that right now while you are here.... She stated she didnt want me to trap the one section (where the sets were that he saw - mind you prior I told him the locations of all my sets) but thst she would have to talk to her brother about the other section. I asked her if I could leave those sets till I heard back from her, no problem she said. So I pull my sets from the one location. Still havent heard back from her on other. He could hear the full convesation - both sides.
Fast forward to today. I get to a bridge crossing where I have 3 mink sets, which been froze in hard for a couple weeks - water came up 10", froze and slowly dropped. I still check those traps daily. Today, I get out to check and my buddy and his co worker pull in behind me. HE has a 110 conibear in his hand. Do you have a set down here? (mind you previously I told him where all my sets were). 'Yup got three here'. Well we have a problem, I found this trap here and it isnt tagged. I said it was tagged when I put it there, I told him I tag all my traps, even showed the bag of tags I carry to replace any that are missing. Had him come down to the other two sets to show him they were tagged. I proceeded to chop out my mink box set - literally 10" of solid ice. End up bending the conibear but get the set out, low and behold it is tagged - the tag took a heck of a beating from the chopping but it was there. I asked him if the trap he pulled could have had the tag removed in the process of getting it out? No, it wasnt tagged he answered. Go to the other set which is 1 1/2 duke. Start chopping ice - after hitting the rock I used as a blocker with his axe he said we dont need to go any further... He tells me that it is illegal to have froze in sets. It is a law that he is required to be able to have access to all sets. I explaind (politely) that I believe the law to be I have to check them every 24hrs which I have but didnt know it was illegal to have frozen sets. He said that it isnt illeagal to have frozen sets but the law requires he have access. I figured it best not to argue. So he had me grab my mink box and follow him and his partner to the vehicles. We get to the vehicles and he proceeded to tell me he is not out looking for me but that he had a trap not far from mine that has gone unchecked for 3 weeks and thus he need to further check the area. I asked 'one of my sets?' ' No someone elses...' Mind you I told him where all my sets were... So he said wait in your vehicle while we talk this over. 35 minutes later he comes back to me with a ticket for an untagged trap... I am so frustrated that I don't know what to do. I know the trap was tagged. I fear if I fight it he will be after me even more... What should I do?
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Post by alpom on Jan 22, 2015 12:38:49 GMT -5
Fight it? Officer word against yours?
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Post by markg on Jan 22, 2015 12:53:56 GMT -5
The whole thing sucks if you ask me. seems like he was trying awfully hard to find a problem. I am 100% in favor of going by the rules but some times you got to be able to look at the big picture. Unfortunatly might be better off in the long run to pay it and move forward. Just my $0.02
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Post by markg on Jan 22, 2015 12:54:13 GMT -5
The whole thing sucks if you ask me. seems like he was trying awfully hard to find a problem. I am 100% in favor of going by the rules but some times you got to be able to look at the big picture. Unfortunatly might be better off in the long run to pay it and move forward. Just my $0.02
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Post by whartonrattrapper on Jan 22, 2015 12:54:19 GMT -5
Go to the judge and explain what happened. Keep your cool, keep it short, and have your story straight. Don't condemn the ECO for doing his job. Most time the judge will show leniency for first offense. Good luck.
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Post by markg on Jan 22, 2015 12:55:03 GMT -5
The whole thing sucks if you ask me. seems like he was trying awfully hard to find a problem. I am 100% in favor of going by the rules but some times you got to be able to look at the big picture. Unfortunatly might be better off in the long run to pay it and move forward. Just my $0.02
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Post by markg on Jan 22, 2015 12:55:41 GMT -5
Sorry not sure how that happened
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Post by kirkwooder on Jan 22, 2015 12:59:23 GMT -5
Sounds like you need to find somewhere to trap that he doesn't know about. Plead not guilty and explain to the judge what happened.
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Post by johnm on Jan 22, 2015 13:19:43 GMT -5
It isnt even so much beating it that bothers me. Believe it or not he wrote the ticket for the wrong town - trust me I live here and have for 30 years I know the towns. My issue is I know it was tagged. This guy has followed me for over a month. You guys are only hearing my side but fact is after a month and three contacts this is all he finds on me? I KNOW the trap was tagged when I put it there.... that is what bothers me - what is next? I do not trap illegally, period... He has even gone out of his way to get me booted from property that I asked permission to trap..... I have been very willing to show him my sets, I have nothing to hide. Ironically, the only trap that 'wasn't tagged' is the one he removed before I got there. Not accusing anyone of anything - but look at the big picture, I have permission to trap there, I have three sets within 15 feet of each other, none of the sets had any issues, why would I not tag that trap.... I just hate being accused of something I didn't do.
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wcs
Posts: 1,159
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Post by wcs on Jan 22, 2015 13:29:59 GMT -5
Plead not guilty and tell your story to the judge. The ECO will not take it personally that you chose to go to trial. People do it all the time with vehicle and traffic law tickets, it's part of the business. Even if you lose at court, nothing gained or lost in my opinion.
Side note, never tell anyone where your sets are located.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Jan 22, 2015 15:23:28 GMT -5
So, ...if he hadn't known where "all" your sets were, what are the odds that he would have even found any of them? I agree, he can travel wherever he has legal authority to but no one has carte blanche on my trapline.
Just one important thing, let's please keep this from becoming an ECO bashing thread like so many have in the past. johnm's not bashing. So far, no one has. I hope it stays that way. Just sayin'...
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 22, 2015 15:29:31 GMT -5
plead not guilty and explain it to the DA / ADA on designated trial night. Be brief, concise but factual. Tell him you can fully understand how the ECO lost the tag while chopping out of ice, you do it all the time. That's why you carry spares in your vehicle. Gives the ECO a face-saving out with ADA.
as for the econ officer per your side of the story here... obviously is hunting you specifically. true tell is the landowner - permissions angle which is far outside his bounds. For all he knows that is your favorite aunt, step-mother, older mistress, etc. He has absolutely no business meddling in that, zero excuses.
lastly, when visiting your trap sets inside each 24-hour period as written, you need approach closely enough to clearly see if a catch was made and if so, immediately remove said catch. nowhere is it written as to what degree one needs to "access" a trap.
I have no problems with econ officers anywhere, but it sure sounds like you have some serious trouble on your hands at this time. I personally would contact that ECO after this ticket is resolved, and have a frank discussion to clear the air and try to get on better footing together
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Post by redknot on Jan 22, 2015 15:38:02 GMT -5
There will be no DA Austin...
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Post by johnm on Jan 22, 2015 16:32:51 GMT -5
The more I think about this the more disturbed I become.... Work with me here - He didn't see my other two sets that were there - no foot prints to them and when I told him lets go check them he didn't know where they were - literally they were both under ice.... So the more I think about this, from HIS perspective he found an untagged trap, he removed it and away he went. Now at this point how would he ever find who's trap it was? No card was left where the trap was... So had we not bumped into each other today, I would have gotten there and seen my only trap (I am looking at it from his point of view) was gone, hmmm trap theft! I would not have gone back again to check as the trap was gone - what was his plan to catch whomever placed the trap? Combine that with the fact that without a doubt I know it had a tag on it when I placed it.... If I were he I would have placed a hidden trailcamera and caught whoever placed this trap. ?? The only thing he had to tie me to the trap is I said ya I have sets there - would I say that if it weren't tagged? I also do not want to bash this or any ECO. In fact for 20 years ECO Captain Powel (retired) was my next door neighbor and a great guy... However I aslo don't like being accused of something I didn't do. My son has a great idea - he has a Go Pro, so I will now be the guy in the field taping all the sets I make and taping all my future encounters with this gentleman.... PS - if you look in my past posts I have commented about my only previous contacts with ECO's have been positive.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 22, 2015 16:36:10 GMT -5
There will be no DA Austin... what court has no DA night? I've never known any town court to not have one. The town justice serves as judge and DA for trials? Or do they get kicked to a bigger venue if anyone pleads not guilty?
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Post by redknot on Jan 22, 2015 16:40:51 GMT -5
Encon Violations are handled by the ECO in upstate NY...The ECO will act as witness and prosecutor at a bench trial...There will be no DA...
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 22, 2015 16:54:04 GMT -5
really? never knew that... completely different down here
in which case I'd 100% plead not guilty and take my time pointing out all timeline facts to the judge
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Post by Dave Morse on Jan 22, 2015 17:05:26 GMT -5
Look, it happened. Prove that yours traps are all tagged if anybody will listen. I put 2 tags per trap and that way if they are both gone , I know a person removed them. I would say something like" All my traps are tagged as you will see and if you pulled an untagged trap out of that frozen creek it was not mine as I tag all my traps in such a way as to not lose tags." He lost respect for you when he caught you in the lie. If a perp will lie about dead deer then he has to assume something is off or why the lie. Go to court and TELL THE TRUTH, respect the judge, the CO will continue to check you out until he feels it no longer necessary, continue trapping in a totally legal manner, with permission and all,2 tags. If your trap become out of commission, fix them or pull them , it gives the appearance they aren't been tended. I, M not trying to be difficult, you will look at it different when you are,nt mad
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Jan 22, 2015 18:35:33 GMT -5
Hey, johnm, I'm not sure if you took it to mean that I was implying you but I sure wasn't. I'm 100% with you as far as what I know about this. Here's to hoping you get this resolved to YOUR satisfaction. When is the hearing?
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Post by slyfox74 on Jan 22, 2015 18:52:31 GMT -5
My knee jerk reaction is the Officer dislikes you because of the initial lie about the deer carcass. He probably even thinks you killed the deer. Keep in mind these guys see the worst scumbags in the outdoors and thus become skeptical of everyone. Personally, I would just plead guilty, pay your fine and move on. If you have traps that are frozen in, chop them out and reset them when conditions improve. Leaving frozen traps in just invites unwanted problems. Even if it's no more than a lost trap. I know a guy who lost 8 traps right in a row due to frozen in traps and the ice going out quickly. We as trappers truly need to walk the line in our actions. Especially when trapping road side ditches. Additionally, I would find the ENCON officer and have a nice long chat with him, explaining who you are and how you operate. Apologize again for the indiscretion in lying to him. Believe me, you're on his list of people to watch. He was hiding and waiting for you when you pulled up to check your sets. They do it all the time. They're good people who have to deal with creeps all day. That's all.
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Post by minkwaders on Jan 22, 2015 20:28:10 GMT -5
I know of a ditch where someone has six traps the haven't checked in over a month. the last time i looked there were four rotted rats sitting in traps. If i had more time i would show the Eco.
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Post by johnm on Jan 22, 2015 20:54:16 GMT -5
TMC, nope I didn't take your post the wrong way at all. And I agree my lie I am sure started this slippery slope. And I know he thinks I threw the stuff there as he told me that. I explained that would pretty much defeat what I am trying to do with my k9 sets. And the fact that I used to due taxidermy and the capes on the deer thrown there are worth several hundred dollars on taxidermy.net - I would have sold them if they were mine. And to be honest if he pinched me for taking bait from the pile I wouldn't have said a word about it here. I know I am on his list... And I am ok with that until we get to the point where he has made me FEEL he somehow removed my trap tag, be it intentional or not intentionally that is where I am at in my mind. The trap was tagged PERIOD until he removed the trap. But, should I try to fight it who will a judge believe? And if I beat it I know I will see even more of him and again I KNOW I didn't do anything illegal so what happens next time? I just wish he would speak with retired Captain Bill Powell as he knows me very well and could vouch personally for my character. Oh well, as they say - can't fight city hall, unless city hall is run by Sheldon Silver right... I like Austins and Slyfoxs suggestion of at some point trying to meet with the officier to hopefully set a better path.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Jan 22, 2015 22:46:50 GMT -5
Well, how about asking retired Captain Bill Powell to go with you to the hearing? It's likely he's had a few encounters with the judge in the past.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Jan 23, 2015 5:56:18 GMT -5
imo if you plead guilty or if you are found guilty, the end result won't differ much. It's not like you're talking poached deer out of season here... the fine for this is probably $100 or less. But you don't need the mark against your license, another violation or two and you will lose your hunting & trapping license for awhile. So what if this officer finds another issue or two next season and writes you up? Where does it end? With your loss of license perhaps?
if nothing else, I would explain to the judge that I know that trap was tagged, just like the two others right next to it and all my others always. But whatever happened in the process of retrieval happened, and here we are. Is it possible to modify or adjust this charge to something less than what it is?
no one here can give you legal advice. I'm simply stating I would respectfully protest this incident because quite frankly if everything you share with us is true, you've been specifically targeted if not outright set-up. The untagged trap and accompanying officer for witness was construed to make a charge where quite frankly a decent ECO would have given you a verbal warning and let it go. Ticketed for one untagged trap amidst several others tagged is a ticky-tack charge at best. If all are untagged, that's a different intent on your part entirely.
you may not be at the end of this guy's personal quest. I myself would establish fresh footing with him, starting at the court night when I explained my story in long, detailed and dated version. Especially the part about ECO seeking out a private landowner and discussing permissions there. That act goes outside of an ECO's duty to enforce the law. He had no business whatsoever involving you and the landowner's in question where no prior complaints had been issued by them.
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Post by kirkwooder on Jan 23, 2015 7:56:46 GMT -5
Are you use that the ECO is the one with the dislike for you? Like Austin said, most of those guy's are good folks trying to do a very difficult job with limited time and resources. For one to purposefully go out of his way to be a pain in your rear end, only to issue you such a minor violation, seems odd to me. Is it likely that some one else may have a problem with you being there, or something you are doing, and calling the ECO in?
Like I said before, I think I would back out of the area and find new ground to trap. Some place that the ECO has no idea that you trap. A dispute like this can get around to other land owners and trappers in the area and cause ill feelings and other problems elsewhere. There is a lot of ground out there that isn't being trapped, I think it would be in your best interest to go find some of it and move on. I would respectfully fight the charge against you, but avoid having any other issues in the same area you have been having the trouble. Out of sight, out of mind, may be a good rule to follow for the foreseeable future.
On a side note, if you wrap your trap tags tightly around a link in the chain, rolled up tight around the wire, they are nearly impossible to lose.
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