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Post by bobsamuelson on Mar 7, 2013 17:41:05 GMT -5
Just looking at the prices from NAFA on the T&PC website. To say "Holy crap!" is an understatement!
Muskrats : only 10% sold but averages of $11.52 with top lot of $54.00
Raccoon : $31.20 an 80% increase from last year, with top lot $240.00
Red Fox : $65.78 with top lot of $340
Beaver : Easterns Average of $37.73 with Western at $31.03 with top lot at $400
Otters : $112.58 averages with top lot of $260
Fisher : $156.67 averages with top lot of $350
Coyotes : Western heavies averages $93.98 with top lot of $1400.00
Lynx Cats : Westerns Averages $589.08 with top lot of $3000.00
Lynx : $194.44 averages with top lot at $525.00
Grey Fox : Averages of $45.91 with top lot of $68.00
Can/Am Sable (martin) : Averages of 144.29 with top lot of $650.00
These are great prices for our hard work, but I wonder how long it will last!
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
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Post by austinp on Mar 7, 2013 17:52:58 GMT -5
watched the auction in real-time online, was a zillion threads on tman at the time covering everything.
prices may back off a bit on some items here & there, but nothing short of a global recession will really hit prices hard. that said, potential for a global recession is definitely not out of the question by next fall
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Post by silverfox on Mar 8, 2013 6:07:03 GMT -5
kinda hijacking thread but just doing a little "cause and effect" analysis about fur prices and pose this to the ol' timers: because of high prices this year predict next years "trapper" numbers to soar, in the past (i know its been a loong time since this kinda "boom") based on your obsevations, will this potentially flood the market with alot of mishandled fur dramatically reducing averages? also based on the answer/ experiences to/with that, will the properly handled fur bring excellent prices (i understand properly handled brings better $$$ anyway but) as buyers are trying to avoid the mishandled fur so they bid higher on the "good stuff"? might be my military way of thinking but im guessing extra effort in putting up fur next season will be a bigger than normal discriminator come time for sales
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redneck315ers
i got the trapping bug and i see u dont have to lay steel to get it
Posts: 1,099
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Post by redneck315ers on Mar 8, 2013 6:14:34 GMT -5
whats a lot
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Mar 8, 2013 6:20:31 GMT -5
here is my opinion on that: since the last fur boom a full thirty (30) years ago, much has changed...
#1: the U.S. has lost a tremendous amount of habitat and wildlife, particularly muskrats and red fox. States that once were strongholds for one or both species now have few to none.
#2: private land access is far less available than before
#3: gas prices will be $4 - $5 gallon
#4: the modern generation is far removed from land... those who think they want to trap versus those who actually will roll up their sleeves is questionable
#5: the last fur boom supported U.S. and European consumption. This time around the demand comes from Asia and Russia. It is a much, much bigger consumer base that would be impossible to flood with wild furs.
Biggest wildcard is ranch fur production. Those same countries (and others) have the ability to produced untold millions of ranch mink and fox. The cost of production would be only barrier and dictates low price floors ahead.
Personally speaking, I would expect fluctuating but generally high fur prices until the next global recession or depression comes along. Be that next year, five years or ten years down the road
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Post by whistlerwhittler on Mar 8, 2013 7:25:30 GMT -5
Bob: T&PC must have had a typo. NAFA's report says that muskrats sold 100%. Looks like all of the wild fur sold!
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Post by silverfox on Mar 12, 2013 10:27:01 GMT -5
here is my opinion on that: since the last fur boom a full thirty (30) years ago, much has changed... #1: the U.S. has lost a tremendous amount of habitat and wildlife, particularly muskrats and red fox. States that once were strongholds for one or both species now have few to none. #2: private land access is far less available than before #3: gas prices will be $4 - $5 gallon #4: the modern generation is far removed from land... those who think they want to trap versus those who actually will roll up their sleeves is questionable #5: the last fur boom supported U.S. and European consumption. This time around the demand comes from Asia and Russia. It is a much, much bigger consumer base that would be impossible to flood with wild furs. Biggest wildcard is ranch fur production. Those same countries (and others) have the ability to produced untold millions of ranch mink and fox. The cost of production would be only barrier and dictates low price floors ahead. Personally speaking, I would expect fluctuating but generally high fur prices until the next global recession or depression comes along. Be that next year, five years or ten years down the road thanks for your educated assesment; alot of interesting variables, im just hoping the high prices dont become a double edged sword sort of speak rednecker: alot is this context is nothing more than slang for "many"
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catman4
If your to busy to hunt & trap then your to busy...
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Post by catman4 on Mar 12, 2013 21:48:17 GMT -5
I foreone hope it stays around for a while...Wow thats some prices..
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Post by milkie62 on Mar 13, 2013 23:45:57 GMT -5
More and more trappers will come out of the woodwork at those prices.Was at a local club meeting tonite and one guy said 3 trappers were setting at the same bridge at the same time for mink.he just drove on....
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Post by silverfox on Mar 14, 2013 5:01:45 GMT -5
agreed, went to some private property i have permission to trap and found half a dozen mink sets (un tagged) talked to land owner; said im the only one should be there. land owner said he would inform DEC.....so it starts
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
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Post by tmc on Mar 14, 2013 6:49:15 GMT -5
Hey silverfox, nice score on the freebie mink traps that now belong to the landowner (seriously, ECO's told me the same thing), and he gifts them to you. ;D
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Post by silverfox on Mar 14, 2013 7:37:14 GMT -5
Hey silverfox, nice score on the freebie mink traps that now belong to the landowner (seriously, ECO's told me the same thing), and he gifts them to you. ;D no kidding!!!! wouldnt mind a half dozen free 120's!!!shoot there may be more i quit following his tracks so i could talk with land owner, whomever it was they obviously werent concerned as the foot of snow leaves a pretty trail to all his sets, i was curious as to wether DEC would "stake out" and try nabbing whomever in the act, ill have to get an update from the landowner
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
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Post by tmc on Mar 14, 2013 8:23:52 GMT -5
They are set w/o permission on private property. The ECO's told me that ALL the illegally placed treestands on my property, withOUT my permission, were my property and I could do with them as I pleased just as I would if I had purchased or made them myself.
Do what DEC says, but DON'T let them tell you that you or the landowner can't touch them since they belong to someone else. The sherrif actually told a friend of mine that, he lives a few towns over from me. Turns out the deputy knew the guy setting the traps and was friends with him, he wanted the opportunity to let his buddy go in and get his traps out before my friend got the DEC in there. Nice little clan, isn't it?
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
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Post by tmc on Mar 14, 2013 8:24:38 GMT -5
Sorry, this is straying from the original post.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
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Post by tmc on Mar 14, 2013 8:25:55 GMT -5
By the way, in all seriousness, how are prices holding up? Especially grey and red fox? Just wondering.
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Post by herm on Mar 14, 2013 8:43:17 GMT -5
I am not saying you should not ask,but this thread has some information that could be misleading.Just because traps are found on private ground without the owners knowledge does not necessarily mean they are not set legal.Maybe they are and maybe they are not.One needs to know the laws before making that determination and calling the DEC. It might be a good idea to be sure of all the laws that might apply before someone goes around picking up traps.I still find it hard to see how anyone can be sure the traps do not have any information one them in regards to the one who set them without disturbing the traps.Yes I know the law refers to legally set traps.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
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Post by tmc on Mar 14, 2013 9:18:32 GMT -5
Hi, herm, we've danced to this tune before and NO, my information is in NOT IN ANY WAY "misleading." If they are set on private property without the "full knowledge AND consent (permission) of the Landowner," (<--- per DEC Region 6 rep via telephone, per the State Police vias telephone, per the County Sherrif in person and via telephone, and per the Town Police in person multiple times, so if I'm giving misleading information then we're all guilty) then they are most certainly illegally set, including the fact that the crime (yes, crime) of trespass was committed by virtue of stepping upon private property without, well see the quotes above. Please, yes - do yourself a favor and CALL THE POLICE as well as the DEC. That means you, too, herm, and put a stop to this kind of debate once you know too. I know I know, here comes another rebuttal asusual but for goodness' sake, SOMEONE SETTING TRAPS ON MY LAND THAT I DIDN'T GIVE PERMISSION TO IS ILLEGAL and EVERY ECO I've talked to says "take 'em, they're yours, but would you leave them there for awhile for us to use as bait to catch the guy?" Period, herm, period. Where's the misleading information? Please, do as you're asking us to do, ASK DEC. Plain and simple, get it straight from them for yourself.
The only way that there could possibly be any exception is if the person setting the traps didn't know he was on the wrong property, but once again ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law and while it might draw leniency by an officer of the law it does NOT make it a non-offense subject to punishment according to law. What's more, if someone has traps set on my land and they're NOT MINE, they're illegally set, PERIOD, and I have absoultely no qualms about "disturbing" them since they are NOT "legally set" traps, and I am in no way violating any law or anyone's "rights" by doing so. I don't take them, but I pull them and leave them on the nearest fence or follow the tracks if there are any and leave them suspended where the setter will no doubt walk into them if he/she walks the same path to check them. NOTHING is wrong with that. At the same time, NOTHING would be wrong with keeping them, either.
Where exactly is the ambiguity of any of this? I mean no offense, believe it or not, but it honestly sounds like you've yourself NOT talked to DEC, ECO or police about this. NONE of what I've written on this subject here or elsewhere is based on my opinions, it's 100% from the authorities, and yet you consistently knock what I write about it. I don't know why, but instead of beating around the bush why not come right out and ask? I'll be happy to PM you the names and telephone numbers of the ECO's and police officers I've had to deal with, and just call your local DEC office and ask them, they "should" be giving the same information as the one in Herkimer, NY/Region 6. Again, I'm not trying to be rude or confrontational but virtually every time I've addressed this subject in this way on this forum, there you are, not calling me by name by implying that, "this thread has some information that could be misleading.Just because traps are found on private ground without the owners knowledge does not necessarily mean they are not set legal.Maybe they are and maybe they are not.One needs to know the laws before making that determination and calling the DEC. It might be a good idea to be sure of all the laws that might apply before someone goes around picking up traps.I still find it hard to see how anyone can be sure the traps do not have any information one them in regards to the one who set them without disturbing the traps.Yes I know the law refers to legally set traps." <--- And that's another thing - It's not clear, but are you saying that one needs to know the laws before calling the DEC? If so, why not call the DEC first?
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
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Post by tmc on Mar 14, 2013 9:23:21 GMT -5
...and once again, I apologize that this has strayed from fur prices.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
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Post by tmc on Mar 14, 2013 10:28:55 GMT -5
As another aside, I just called the Utica Office of DEC, all voice mailboxes. Called the Herkimer Office, confirmed what I've written, AGAIN. Called ECO, his number is in the Hunting & Trapping Reg's so go look it up and ask any of them the same thing and you'll surely get the same answer. In a nutshell: It is no different in the eyes of the law than any personal property being stored on your land (real property) without your permission, it is not illegal siezure on your part to keep it, ALL of it, ANY of it, for as long as you please since, again in the eyes of the law, IT NOW BELONGS TO YOU AND YOU ALONE. You do not need title if it's a motor vehicle IF and ONLY IF you will only ever be operating it on YOUR property, and ONLY on the property on which it was found, since travel over public highways would require title to register and insure it, but you'd better get the police there asap BEFORE you sieze any motor vehicle for which you need title in case it was stolen. "THAT is the ONLY time, sir, when there could ever be any question whatsoever. Traps? Tree stands? No, they're yours, never any question about that, none whatsoever." "OK, but what if they leave a handgun, which requires a permit to possess, and they've all got serial numbers? Even possessing it would constitute a violation on my part if it's not on my permit, at least in NY, right?" >awkward silence for about 20-seconds< "OK, Mr. _______, you got me, yes that's the only other instance in which it would apply. ... I think. Let me get back to you tomorrow, I'm out on a complaint call right now. I'll find out for sure before I give an answer." "OK, but one last question, I promise, at least for this call --" (muffled laugh) "-- you say motor vehicles, can't be off the property on which they're found because title is needed, but what if they're being trailered on the road, no part of the vehicle including tires ever touch the road, to another property I own; what about that?" >a little more silence, then a very abrupt< "OK, we're going to get back to you on that, I have to go. But in the meanwhile, if you find an illegal motor vehicle on your property, with or without anyone, owner or otherwise, in attendance, please call the police first. OK? Thank you, I'll call back tomorrow, I have your number." Yes, I was taking notes while on the phone. But, please satisfy yourself anyway. Then you'll have it firsthand, and noone will ever be able to convince you that you don't know the law on TRAPS on property where no permission has been given, or this subject. You may still see things written by people who HAVEN'T found out for themselves, and many who themselves have not yet found out personally may be talked into believing elsewise, but it doesn't detract from the validity of what YOU know, personally. Call the DEC. Call the numbers posted in the H&T Regs for the ECO's. Call the State Police, call the county sherrif, and local police if any. I'd be interested to learn if ANY have a "different opinion" from what I've written. I hope this puts an end to the debate, but I have a feeling it won't.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
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Post by tmc on Mar 14, 2013 10:42:13 GMT -5
Just got a call-back! --->
"When the property falls under a category requiring registration in NYS, including canoes that may have a motor, handguns, or anything else requiring registration, call the police first since it is possible that it may no longer be regarded as simple as it appears, we defer to them on these subjects in the same manner as they defer to us on trapping, hunting and certain land-use subjects."
"OK, but other than some kind of cowardly revenge sort of stuff, do they have ANY legal recourse against me?"
"No, but that might not stop some lawyers from trying. In fact, we had one going to court, it probably would have been thrown out if it had gone any farther. I honestly believe that the lawyer knew that very well before he even took the case, and that's why he 'settled' at that point."
"What do you mean, 'settled'?"
"The owner sold the items back to the offender. Well, not sold 'back,' since -- it was complicated! The offender wouldn't claim any ownership to the items - it wasn't traps in that case - but wanted them, but his lawyer wouldn't allow him to use the word 'back' since that would imply that he DID put them there and would be admitting to trespass. It was a mess. But anyways, that was as far as I knew anything about it."
OK, rabbit trail ends here. Sorry.
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Post by silverfox on Mar 14, 2013 14:15:58 GMT -5
to address the question of "how you can confirm tagging without disturbing" is easy in this case, its nothing more than cut gallon jugs (slotted to accept 110-120's) and are placed in the open and every inch of chain is visible as they are just wired to hanging branches nearby, being that i am not the land owner i did not molest at all, but was bout 95% sure the landowner had not given permission so i confirmed with him and let him handle it, im with TMC on the fact that if i found traps on my property i would gladly remove (if i did not give any one permission) in the past i have had numerous trespassing issues with coyote hunters standing in my yard (within 25 yards of my barn with loaded weapon in one instance)waiting for their dogs to run stink dogs thru, ive even had some southern tier city folk establish a "spike camp" during deer season having to open a posted gate to access it, i closed and locked the gate and called DEC who dealt with offenders quickly, worst ones are the road hunters who will stop right in front of the house, put barrell out the window of vehicle, and shoot at deer in our pastures having to aim in between the posted signs, ive also had the other side, that being very cordial fellers stop in and ask permission to bird hunt our hedge rows or fish our pond, ive never refused a person who had the decency to stop and ask, but start seeing red when i witness the other incidences listed above as i view unauthorized trespass of private property absolute disrespect, and i really dont see a grey area here, your trespassing or your not trespassing
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Mar 14, 2013 15:06:42 GMT -5
Another thing the DEC told me is that whenever, every time, they find traps on state land, they look them over to make sure that they're legal types of sets and then they check for tags. He said that they do NOT consider it "disturbing" the set since it is necessary to first ascertain that they ARE legally set when on public domain lands. They make note of the location, type of set and the ID of the trapper for future reference so that they don't have to inspect it again as long as nothing changes. He also said that this isn't nearly as often as you'd (I'd) think, because most traps would be off the regular courses of travel, as a general rule, and that most sets wouldn't be visible without being sprung, with or without an animal in the trap.
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Post by herm on Mar 14, 2013 19:15:08 GMT -5
TMC,Nothing personal and I dont want it to be.Since the post refered to calling the DEC I would assume that we are talking about ECL laws.I also believe you that you contacted the DEC and posted the answer that they gave you. What I do not know and would like to see in print is what ECL law states that you are breaking the law if you go on unimproved lands without the owners permission. It is my believe and I have read the law that the burden falls on the land owner to post or in some way inform that he does not want someone on such lands. If you can find the ECL law that shows I am wrong then I will stand corrected.It would not be the first time. I will say I think it is bad practice and asking for trouble if you do not ask before setting traps. Also remember I said you might or might not be breaking the law,it depends on the cercumstances.
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Post by erict on Mar 14, 2013 22:26:22 GMT -5
TMC - I respectfully disagree with some of your posts above. I dug up some old research and present some food for thought:
There are two types of trespass. One is "common" or Penal Law trespass, one is Environmental Conservation Law (ECL) trespass.
Penal Law Penal Law trespass states "A person is guilty of trespass when he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises." Penal law trespass is a violation. (Violations are not "crimes". Crimes are misdemeanors and felonies.)
"Enter or remain unlawfully" is further defined, in part, as: “A person who enters or remains upon unimproved and apparently unused land, which is neither fenced nor otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders, does so with license and privilege unless notice against trespass is personally communicated to him by the owner of such land or other authorized person, or unless such notice is given by posting in a conspicuous manner.”
Let's say you trudge through your neighbors posted property, set up a tent and camp overnight. If the landowner files a complaint you can be charged with Penal Law trespass.
Environmental Conservation Law ECL trespass states “No person shall enter or remain unlawfully or engage in any activity upon land which has been posted pursuant to section 11-2111 in violation of the terms of such posted signs or the terms of any written notice and warning served upon such person pursuant to subdivision four of section 11-2111. ECL trespass is a violation.
In other words, one is trespassing by ECL if they do not have permission AND the land is legally posted OR they have been served with notice that they are not to enter such lands. If the land is unfenced, unimproved, unposted and apparently unused then it is hard to prove that the person “should have known” not to enter (unless "served with notice"). ECL trespass was created mostly to address trespass when hunting, trapping or fishing.
Found property Traps, treestands or anything else being discussed here in violation of trespass laws are either EVIDENCE or FOUND PROPERTY. In either case, the finder cannot LEGALLY just keep them any more than you can keep your neighbor's cow if it comes on to your property, a hot air balloon if it lands on your property, cash buried on your property by a bank robber or your neighbor's shed if it was built over the property line. New York Personal Property Law covers most of this. I'm not saying this doesn't happen all the time, but the law is clear.
Legal or Practical – you choose There are two paths to take when untagged traps are found on private property and they are suspected of being set illegally. If you are the landowner or officer, which would you choose or recomend?
1. LEGAL - File a complaint and turn over the untagged traps as evidence – You take time, officer spends time to come out, complete complaint. You and officer take time trying to figure out who the traps belong to. Maybe you or the officer leaves a note for the offender to call to get his traps back. In some cases the offender is never caught and the traps stay in some evidence room. In some cases the case is solved quickly and the law determines if the traps are forfeited or go back to the offender. Always a potential for a lot of time spent by you and/or the officer.
2. PRACTICAL - Don't file a complaint and keep the traps. In some cases you end up with some free traps and the offender learns a lesson. In other cases, the offender comes looking for his traps. Now the officer gets a call, takes the traps as EVIDENCE and the offender gets an appointment with the judge. Minimizes the effort for everyone but the offender. You do run the slight risk that the offender files a stolen property report. This turns the FOUND property in your possession into STOLEN property (even though he may at the same time be admitting to setting the traps on your land). If he can positively identify the traps by markings, etc. AND you are caught possessing them then you could BOTH be visiting the judge.
I don't make this up, nor am I interested in debating. ...and how about those NAFA prices! Holy Crap!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2013 23:11:26 GMT -5
This one is easy....if I find traps or another treestand on my property, they will be advertised on the Tman trap shed shortly thereafter. I found traps with no tags before and called the DEC, he told me to take them.
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