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Post by mole on Dec 31, 2005 17:55:56 GMT -5
I read a post on lure use and I got thinking about it so Hopefully you here will kick it around a little. Here ges. Canine set; How much lure is enough,to much, not enough? How would you determine if you are using your lure improperly? Ed
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Post by Itrapny on Dec 31, 2005 18:04:41 GMT -5
I tend to use what I can dip on a pencil size twig when I first set, and then I only relure if I have a heavy rain or non target catch. I use a little more if it colder or even a LDC lure directly at the set. I think that if you use too much lure you actually can shy K-9's, espicially 'yotes, away from your set for a few days. If you are getting tracks in your pattern and no catches, chances are you may be using to much lure. When I am catching K-9's the first night I know I am using my lure properly.
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Post by mole on Dec 31, 2005 18:14:28 GMT -5
With all due respect,catching something doesn't really prove anything. If the tracks are in the catch zone and you missed it,its not the lure,its you. Avoidance at the set is the problem. Is it the lure? Is it to much lure? Is it not enough lure? Ed
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Post by Itrapny on Dec 31, 2005 18:36:58 GMT -5
Ed, From my experience, if there are tracks in the pattern with no digging and no catch, it isn't a trap location or contamination problem. To me the animal either wasn't interestedcin what he smelled or something else alerted him. Now if the animal is rolling in the pattern it smells something rotton or it's an overpowering odor. I really don't think that you can use too little lure for a K-9's, they can smell so much better than we ever can. I've seen where there had dug at a dirt hole months after the set was pulled while scouting for next season. Just my observations, I haven't been at it as long as some, and certainly not as often as I'd like during the season either.
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Post by mole on Dec 31, 2005 19:36:07 GMT -5
Wayne, Tracks in the pattern and no catch is a trap placement problem,or just dumb luck on the animals part. Now ,you are right on the rolling,and we are getting somewhere. This is a problem with the smell at the set. Did we use to much,probably. Was it the wrong lure,maybe. Next problem; avoidence, maybe circling a set with out entering the trap zone. or walking by,with no evident interest. Could these be a sign of improper lure use? Ed
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Post by Itrapny on Dec 31, 2005 19:42:29 GMT -5
Could be, or maybe the wind wasn't blowing from the right direction that night. But how do we know if they are walking by or circling without snow or large area's of loose soil???
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2005 19:58:20 GMT -5
I think it depends on the type lure ,weather conditions and your own tactics , not so much how much you use at the set. If I have a canine roll on the set I also feel that the lure is over powering and that's when I believe that I've used it improperly. It also means that the lure maybe is a loser as I don't want animals rolling at the set. However a flat set with no lure made near such a loud lure can be an effective tactic for canines. They roll on the loud smelling spot ,then pee on the first thing that catches their attention, and that's where a flat set with just urine used, shoud be made. Also, how you hold the lure at the set is very important, as dilution of the scent by just pouring it on a backing or down a hole is hit or miss, and leads to false conclusions on performance. So I think it is not how much you use but how you present it. A lure holder such as a vial or an old lure bottle with one cotton ball inside is what I use , and I put that down the hole. I don't really worry about getting to much at the set as I use just what I can get on the holders mentioned. For instance, I use a cotton ball soaked with LDC in a vial right at the set in colder weather and don't feel I have to much smell. The only time I use a twig to present lure at a set ,is in a cubby where it is protected from weather. The only thing I pour in quanity on any exposed backing at a set is urine.
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Post by Dave Leibig on Jan 1, 2006 10:06:38 GMT -5
I believe that a lure needs to be tested to find out if it is going to work. there are to many variables with lure. I also think that testing needs to be tested not only before season, when it is warm, but also in winter. Some lures will only attract animals when the temps are mild and not when it is cold. There is no exact science in trying to figure out animal behavior. They each have different personalities and react differently from one animal to the next. This is my opinion from my observations, that works in my area. Good Luck. Dave
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Post by jsevering on Jan 1, 2006 21:20:57 GMT -5
tough question, think its important to understand what your tring to achieve with a certain specific type lure or lure combination and how you apply them and were.
belive the way you apply certain lures at a set will also control if you get shoulder rubs or the desired digging response,more so than the amount used within reason.
Im of the belief that location is the best lure and belive this allows me to be comfortable with using small amounts of lure such as wayne described, particularly in the fall, any stink hot or mellow will usally get a track in the pattern if your on location, understanding the desired responce to the set presented and the proper lure or lure \ bait combo that will make them want to work it and how and where it is applied at the set is more important than the amount used, to me at least.
todays lures particularly the tri plex type, allow for varied responses, food\gland\call and depending on what type of rot or rendering process along with other added ingredients you bought within that little bottle the responce may vary.
so I guess to make a loaded question short I would determine proper lure usage through actual animal response. which I believe can be controled through proper placement methods at the set itself.
................................................................................... Next problem; avoidence, maybe circling a set with out entering the trap zone. or walking by,with no evident interest. Could these be a sign of improper lure use ........................
yes in my mind, not having an agreeable wind direction or setting up with improper windage could be a culprit in circling a set without commitment in part along with apparent blow bye's circling without working the set could be a lure,he hit after he passed the set, wind and lure caught his attention, but didnt hold enough interest in that particular lure alone or that particular set presentation to work the lure, or mabye your application did alow him to work it with the wrong windage to his satifaction from the back of the set. could even be something as simple as a drifted in step down type set, flat or hole and he worked the set to his satisfaction from the ridge or lip of a seemingly flat snow covered set, the lure alone wasnt enough for a commitment with the physical conditions of the set at the time.
true advoidance in my mind is more of an association problem which is an other loaded question.
those are some good lure questions with tons of variables that could come into play, no real rights with no real wrongs and a thousand little parts in between, some nice questions to think about and toss around, with each new variable theres always a new circle to ponder ;D......jim
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Post by nightowl on Jan 2, 2006 8:56:50 GMT -5
OK, maybe I'm a little bit over sensitive to this statement..LOL but why do so many people on so many sights make the statement "location is the best lure"? Location has nothing to do with the actual luring of the animal to the set. A completely empty dirt hole ( eye appeal ) on location will catch some animals as will a well placed blind set on a trail. But a firmly bedded well concealed foothold stuck in the ground at random in a great area has almost zero chance of catching anything except maybe a wandering possum. Take the very best location on your canine line and think about going in there next season without using a drop of lure. Doesn't make sence does it? Lure is an attractor that's value is overestimated and underestimated by many people. For the most part I think younger trappers overestimate it's importance and older trappers underestimate it. Having said that I think without a doubt location ranks #1 on the priority chart BEFORE you think about opening a bottle of lure. I like what Jim said about great locations leading to using less lure at a set. The goal should always be to set the best areas you can find. But he touches on something that novice trappers often make a mistake with. Not as much confidence in an area so they add a little more lure than usual. It can't draw in what isn't there. Mr. Mole again has asked a tough question about how much is just right. Most of us rely on past successes and draw on that knowledge of how much we used. Like Wayne's twig or a number of drops of a liquid lure for someone else. Then we react to weather, temperature and length of time to determine when to add more. Good question and good answers so far.
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Post by grzclaw on Jan 2, 2006 9:50:04 GMT -5
I have to agree with Jim and Night owl!! if i was to begin to ramble on on my thoughts, it pretty much sound the same as the two of them. Location is the key, BARR NONE!! a good eye appeal and then your bait and lure!! some lures are soft and some are loud in the smell department!! take this in consideration when you place your amount on. and believe me you dont have to put but a small amount to a set. the canines nose is alot more strong smelling then our nose ever thought of being! Its a trial and error world!! let the animal tell you what mistakes you make, and if you didnt make any, they should be there waiting for you!! GRIZ
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Post by Jonathan on Jan 2, 2006 14:19:42 GMT -5
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Post by bballou on Jan 2, 2006 21:08:22 GMT -5
I’d like to add my two cents:
Everyone has had a valid point about lure dosage and I will not argue any point.
I think Dave Leibig said it best, a trapper has to TEST the lure he wants to use and know what it will do and won ‘t do. Myself… I would not use any lure that would shy a K-9 from a set simply from applying too much or too little. THAT’S COUNTER PRODUCTIVE. The lures I use cause digging and excitement. Gang setting is for multiple catches and multiple lures if they don’t like one there aught to be two or three more to choose from. As far as the amount of lure applied to a set that depends on my mood, soil conditions, or the condition of whatever I apply the lure to. I use a lot of lure at a set. I want the animal to know where to look. (THE TRAPPERS I TOOK LESSONS FROM TAUGHT ME THAT, YEARS AGO). I have tested the lure I use. The lure will NOT shy K-9s’ at least it hasn’t for the last 40 + YEARS of K-9 trapping.
Know your lure and remember to catch K-9s in numbers its LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION, and solid bedding.
Ed lets talk K-9s rolling in sets next time. I’d like to hear some thoughts on that subject.
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Post by jsevering on Jan 2, 2006 22:41:57 GMT -5
OK, maybe I'm a little bit over sensitive to this statement..LOL but why do so many people on so many sights make the statement "location is the best lure"? Location has nothing to do with the actual luring of the animal to the set. A completely empty dirt hole ( eye appeal ) on location will catch some animals as will a well placed blind set on a trail. But a firmly bedded well concealed foothold stuck in the ground at random in a great area has almost zero chance of catching anything except maybe a wandering possum. .......................................................................................
to me location in part is a physical\georaphical lure that draws an animal to an area be it for a ready food source or ease of travel from area to area in part.
eye appeal in itself is another form of a lure to be used
scent\dope aka lure along with bait as presented in the thread, in my mind is part of the overal lure of the set.
not being arguementitive here, just explaining how I look at location as being the best lure.
sometimes I think scent and dope were better words for explaining the attraction[lure] within the bottle so that some realize that its a part of the overall working set, and as a part a particular type lure needs to be presented as such, not the cure all to put every foot on the pan at every set, but as a tool within the overall presentation of the completed set to achive that result.
I kinda belive if some realize that earlier in there trapping that it would eliminate alot of tunnel vision and open the doors to variations of sets that allow a trapper to advance his skills through out the season....jim
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