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Post by whartonrattrapper on May 4, 2020 7:26:44 GMT -5
2014 updated BMP's for river otter: www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/trapbmpsotter.pdf Here's an excerpt from page three of the above BMP manual; Populations Along with so many other North American wildlife species, the story of the resurgence in river otter numbers is quickly becoming one of the great success stories of modern conservation. Unregulated harvest, degradation of water quality and habitat, and human encroachment led to a severe decline in otter populations by 1900. Most populations were vastly reduced, with some being entirely extirpated. However, as a result of the dedicated efforts of concerned biologists and state wildlife agencies, reintroductions, protection, improved habitat quality, and regulated harvest, otter populations began to rebound in the later half of the 20th century. At present, river otter populations are expanding across their range. Indeed, in some drainages, reestablished otter populations have become over-abundant and threaten valuable fisheries. Careful management by state wildlife agencies is needed—usually through regulated harvest.
It's now 2020....
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Post by jsevering on May 4, 2020 10:34:44 GMT -5
availability and or actual existing abundance of the renewable resource, time and broken promises don't matter... what matters is the next study to copy paragraphs and lines from the last... with foot notes of course, referencing the author of the previous study... so the author/of the next study.... well you get the idea... jim
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on May 4, 2020 16:47:40 GMT -5
Apparently "Careful management by state wildlife agencies" doesn't apply in New York State.
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Post by mikemason on May 4, 2020 17:27:30 GMT -5
Al and Jim, I spoke with the Region 4 Biologist this winter when I got otter tagged. I asked when the otter season in the Catskills was going to reopen. She said trapping otter is a touchy subject with the NYC people with summer homes in the Catskills. So it is based on science(sarcastic)
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on May 4, 2020 19:13:59 GMT -5
Sounds like she is as dumb as the guy that closed the season. How many decades ago was that? As I have long suspected it seems that politics and or convenience plays the largest role in NY wildlife decisions.
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Post by trappermac on May 4, 2020 19:19:49 GMT -5
We got plenty down here in the western southern tier as well, I get about 4-5 visits a year in my pond that is connected to a series of ponds and a trout stream. The stream is a wild trout fishery. So they can clean it out so people downstate can sit on their decks on their million dollar summer homes and watch otters "frolic" in the water. Cute little buggers. Coyotes are cute I think.....
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Post by jsevering on May 5, 2020 6:39:49 GMT -5
lol, I get the sarcasm mike, here in the catskills where they shut us down … lots of big trout fishing clubs/private land owners along the rivers... they all realize and understand one thing... otter eat fish, lots of them.... jim
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Post by whartonrattrapper on May 5, 2020 8:47:16 GMT -5
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Post by jsevering on May 5, 2020 8:56:07 GMT -5
How many decades ago was that? …………………………………………………………………………………………
over two decades now Al, the first wmu shut down here was a quite one... little wmu, now part of a bigger wmu for quite the while now, believe a year before the restoration ended or the same year more or less... been so long ago memory is getting fuzzy some, remember though nysta was not made aware of the closure or the intent for the next two. Believe it was ED and myself that made them aware at a nysta meeting we attended to complain about the closing... the next year, which probably the same we were bitching about the first, at the meeting date at that time, they went or were going for two more wmu's.. and the following year or even the end side of that year, they went for the nysta president at that time Keith Kurtel with that BS leak about a ticket that was very questionable in my opinion, that was blown way out of proportion by dec and some on nysta ( It was a bullshit ticket and Keith got screwed pure and simple... He was a good president)... for trying to keep them beholding to their promises they had made during the restoration and before.... we were also blessed with the trigger reg. debacle, through all of this, that they also promised would not come about out of the North Carolina Study... didn't nysta contribute some so... Bob Gottie could attend or some BS like that only to have him and them push that down our throats also... imagine you being part of the JTI committee at that time remember what happened there better than me... like I said been so long, I have starting to get fuzzy some.... jim
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on May 5, 2020 19:15:04 GMT -5
I actually knew that the closure was well over twenty years, and yes I was Chairman of the JTI Committee at that time. I have made countless complaints about the closure which should have never happened, all to no avail. I well remember the cast of characters, and in particular a guy named Sharrick. Many of them now retired. Many of the promises never fulfilled and long forgotten. How many studies were conducted? I also well remember the trigger studies at Hale's Creek field station., and I remember one biologist hiring a tech to sneak around and spy on trappers to see if they were following the trigger regs.DEC is quick to ignore that some of those otters trapped for restoration were from your closed area. Why has not your area and the restoration areas been reopened? Secret deals? Something is very rotten in DEC and I firmly believe that politics plays a huge role. Catskill summer folks wanting to see the otters. Horse nuts! That was the dumbest answer yet.Too bad she doesn't practice true wildlife management, than being a yes person!
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Post by jsevering on May 6, 2020 11:17:36 GMT -5
thanks for posting the study Whartonrattrapper… read it about four times already, hopefully the study enables an actual management plan, that includes a harvest, that the biologist can go forward with.... some interesting points in there on the percentage increase of sign, with actual field experience gained from one year to another and the additional ground searched per 100m out within the survey block from the initial starting point... was actually surprised to see that part in there … was surprised also about the overall size of the study... kind of takes you from a dark place to seeing a possible glimmer of light... thanks again for posting it... jim
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Post by whartonrattrapper on May 7, 2020 6:40:27 GMT -5
You're welcome Jim. It sure sounds like they have all the info they need to implement a management plan.
Were you aware they were doing the study?
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Post by jsevering on May 7, 2020 7:44:55 GMT -5
No I wasn't aware of the study, glad you posted it. Last study I checked out was a few years ago and it was talking about common DNA strands and interbreeding and how maybe they should of used some otters from a different state, they had some scientific name for it, I cant remember... wasn't promising and called for more studies more or less... remember thinking at that time tripping over the sign along the river banks... that it did not seem to apply here, at least on the ground.. jim
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Post by mikemason on May 7, 2020 9:23:33 GMT -5
Studies, studies research...….remember the fisher study in St Lawrence County that said the later season(primer pelts) had no impact on the fisher population. DEC threw that one under the rug because it does not go with their "trophy" policy!
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Post by jsevering on May 7, 2020 11:54:01 GMT -5
One thing for sure with the otter in nys ... politics, shareholders, contributing corporations or who and whatever ... without a positive study across the closed and reintroduction areas, like the one posted... to allow any sort of management for a harvest to go forward... it will go no where, just be in limbo like it has been for the last twenty some odd years... jim
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Post by stewart on May 9, 2020 19:47:22 GMT -5
We are catching them on the Ontario side of the Niagara River on a semi regular basis in our beaver sets. I don't doubt they are crossing over from NY. Picked up a road kill on the River Rd. in Fort Erie by Nichols Marina. Guys fishing in the hole just off the Marina see them quite regularly too.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on May 10, 2020 9:39:41 GMT -5
I am not affected by the otter closure, but know that it is dead wrong. I have been greatly affected when it comes to Fisher. As Mike pointed out, DEC chooses to ignore the St.Lawrence Cointy study. They also ignore the NYS Trappers survey from years ago, instead using very carefully worded Cornell surveys designed to trick trappers. The fact remains that because of the lack of proper management the Adirondack population declined greatly. All of the attention went to radio collaring pine marten, an increasing population, while ignoring the declining fisher. The truth is that they did not know squat about fisher. They took an condescending attitude when trappers tried to tell them about fisher. So what did they do? They shortened the Adirondack season, but on the wrong end! Fur quality was not a consideration. Then they took a lot of credit for the fisher expansion into the southern tier; a natural happening not created by DEC. Finally they opened a short season there, but in October! The name of the game became TROPHY. Same thing with the bobcats. After the DEC's southern tier study they shifted to the north country and a bunch of crap like the log books and skull submissions. How many years of that have we endured? The truth is that DEC is very highly political, though they deny this. Furbearers are not managed as a natural resource, but instead as trophies. Fur quality is ignored. Meantime the biologists come and go, some retire, some get promoted, and some get advanced degrees, but through it all it is the trappers that are getting screwed. How many studies have been made on the otters, how many secret deals, and where the Hell is the Otter Management Plan? And now you know why I'm as bitter as I am.
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Post by trappermac on May 10, 2020 16:28:58 GMT -5
I had read that a new management plan was to be issued this spring. I read this in the latest TP within the minutes of Erie County's report, that a first draft otter management plan would be completed by spring. Nothing from the NYSTA on this, not surprising.
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Post by whartonrattrapper on May 11, 2020 7:16:15 GMT -5
I am not affected by the otter closure, but know that it is dead wrong. I have been greatly affected when it comes to Fisher. As Mike pointed out, DEC chooses to ignore the St.Lawrence Cointy study. They also ignore the NYS Trappers survey from years ago, instead using very carefully worded Cornell surveys designed to trick trappers. The fact remains that because of the lack of proper management the Adirondack population declined greatly. All of the attention went to radio collaring pine marten, an increasing population, while ignoring the declining fisher. The truth is that they did not know squat about fisher. They took an condescending attitude when trappers tried to tell them about fisher. So what did they do? They shortened the Adirondack season, but on the wrong end! Fur quality was not a consideration. Then they took a lot of credit for the fisher expansion into the southern tier; a natural happening not created by DEC. Finally they opened a short season there, but in October! The name of the game became TROPHY. Same thing with the bobcats. After the DEC's southern tier study they shifted to the north country and a bunch of crap like the log books and skull submissions. How many years of that have we endured? The truth is that DEC is very highly political, though they deny this. Furbearers are not managed as a natural resource, but instead as trophies. Fur quality is ignored. Meantime the biologists come and go, some retire, some get promoted, and some get advanced degrees, but through it all it is the trappers that are getting screwed. How many studies have been made on the otters, how many secret deals, and where the Hell is the Otter Management Plan? And now you know why I'm as bitter as I am. They are currently doing more research on Fisher in the Tug Hill region. I'll start another thread on that when I can find the info.
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