paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Nov 27, 2019 10:39:41 GMT -5
No one has been more outspoken than me criticizing DEC for the serious decline in Adirondack Fisher. I remember the old days when biologists like Gary Parsons and Mark Brown would not have let that happen. Rather than continue my criticism I would make a suggestion. I remember when Adirondack fisher were live trapped and reintroduced into the Catskills.Also our otters were live trapped and re-introduced into the southern tier. Why couldn't DEC live trap fishers in areas where they are abundant and reintroduce them back into the Adirondacks? Close the season for a couple of years to allow them to get established? Just a thought that has crossed my mind.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Nov 27, 2019 10:43:23 GMT -5
I said DEC to live trap the fisher. What I should have said was for local trappers to do it.
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Post by hardwoodcharlie on Nov 27, 2019 13:08:40 GMT -5
Not sure I would encourage them to close the season after all that’s what they did with the otter and that didn’t work out very well for us at all. I’ve often thought about making certain areas with sustainable habitats off limit for for harvesting, but have it so they alternate yearly or every other year so that certain areas didn’t become permanently closed from a study stall out. As far as relocating fisher back to the ADK I’m all for it I would have no problem releasing and caging them for Dec
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Post by mikemason on Nov 27, 2019 13:42:48 GMT -5
Has the habitat changed? DEC has taken 10's of thousands of acres out of active timber production in that area over the last 20 years.
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Post by trappermac on Nov 27, 2019 14:22:09 GMT -5
Agree with Charlie...if they close, it may never open again.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Nov 27, 2019 14:24:16 GMT -5
A very long story in its own right so I'll give the Cliff Notes version: A friend had fishers (yes plural lol, three of them) attacking his pet ducks. That story is the long part but is fascinating and, well, while terrible it's hilarious at the same time. ANYWAYS, he went out and bought some big $$$ live catch traps (which I'm still trying to buy from him, 3 years later), shows up at my farm one day to let one go. I called the DEC to see if it was permissible, they said absolutely against the law to do so, disease spread, all that. My friend could hear most of the conversation and knew the answer, but as soon as I hung up and before I could say "No," he said, "Yep! All I needed to hear was him answer 'yes' to one of your questions. Good enough for me!" And he let the fisher go. Probably one I've already caught lol! paintedpaw, he's since moved, but maybe I can ask some of his old neighbors to live catch and transport.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Nov 27, 2019 16:24:48 GMT -5
The argument about closing the season is a valid one.The closure of those otter seasons never should have happened. Some of the re-introduction otters were actually trapped in the areas they since closed. How long has it been? an absolute disgrace on the part of DEC. What I am referring to is back when DEC could be trusted.Fisher were king in the Adirondacks; to be protected at all costs. When the catch dipped DEC would close the season for a year or two to let the population rebound. An excellent trapper once said to me, "Don't give up a thing, you will never get it back". How true! Today I would require, IN WRITING, a guarantee of how long a closure would be, and when it would reopen. The otter closure, and the many broken promises by people now retired, is good reason to not trust DEC. Politics rules the day. I don't have many years of fisher trapping left, but I am heartbroken to see what that genius in Ray Brook has allowed to happen.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Nov 27, 2019 16:28:44 GMT -5
P.S.
How many Catskill Trappers have been cheated out of being able to harvest a resource by those that would not recognize an otter toilet from an ant hill?
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Post by milkie62 on Nov 27, 2019 18:04:41 GMT -5
I tend to agree with the one post that if it gets closed it may be a long time before it get reopened.Maybe trappers up north should govern themselves and only take the incidental fisher in coyote,cat & fox sets. I have fisher on my property and pull my traps after I catch one. Luckily I have yet to catch a female so my population from tracks in the snow, roadkills & trail cam pics show in my area they are fairly strong. Just because a season is open does mean you need to purposely trap them.
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Post by hardwoodcharlie on Nov 27, 2019 19:06:48 GMT -5
paintedpaw your thoughts on closing the season makes perfect sense, it a true common sense approach to a not so diffacult problem.But the problem lays in the common sense area......the people involved would overthink it make it more complex than it is and have to poke it with sticks study this and that and it would go on and on and on... Charlie
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Post by brandonh on Nov 27, 2019 19:27:23 GMT -5
In my area of the southern Adirondacks, I have been seeing quite a few fisher tracks on the snow. Im actually pleasantly surprised- and feel that if a guy wanted to put in some effort next season- he should be able to do all right. With this season substantial mast crop, i figured this year would be a bust trying to get fisher and/or marten to come to bait. Just because you arent catching them, doesnt mean they aren’t around. I also think that the low prices are keeping some trappers inside watching tv. I am firmly against closing the season as DEC just cant be trusted to reopen it.Be more inclined to drop the season down to two weeks and run it in the beginning of december.
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Post by trappermac on Nov 27, 2019 19:54:42 GMT -5
Yep, make a two week season statewide sometime in December. Instead of the meager 5 day season here in the southern zone that they will now study forever, give us all a 2 week shot when I think it would be a blast to concentrate on a fisher line and the fur will be the most saleable due to primeness. I get my permit here for the 5 day but I don't set for them, I have it just in case while concentrating on a canine line. Then I have to fill out a lengthy log and remember to send it back. Ugh. I maintain 3 trail cameras on my property all year and I see fisher on them often. Why can't they just listen to trappers, we truly have whats best for the furbearer as our priority.
And Al, you got many years left of trapping fisher...and I respect your vigilance for being outspoken on their behalf.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Nov 28, 2019 13:42:29 GMT -5
The southern zone fisher season is due either to arrogance or stupidity. I've said plenty in the past, so I will not go back there. Fisher are my favorite furbearer; they represent all that is wild, and it bothers me that DEC has done the things it has done. In my area of the eastern Adirondacks are far and few between. I have been trapping on snow most of the season and have only seen one fisher track. I have opened the stomaches of every fisher that I have caught and have found only found vegetative materials, no small animals. I respect Brandon's knowledge and opinion. DEC just can't be trusted. Period ! Personally I could live with a shorter season, if it was in December. Unfortunately You would never get a longer season ever. They ignore the St.Lawrence County study which proved no negative affect from a later season. They love to twist the "facts" to what they want. What we don't need is any more long term studies. college studies, track boards, logs, or skull submissions. We don't need any more collars on Pine Marten.DEC's record of incompetence on Otters says it all. I know NYSTA opposes catch limits, but I would be in favor of a reasonable limit of say ten animals. Also, my ideal season would be the month of December, statewide.
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Post by jsevering on Nov 30, 2019 19:58:18 GMT -5
is that ten animal limit in an area that has a low volume reputedly from habitat neglect, caused by the same people (outfit)... or is it state wide.... if its state wide I like to put in my request to limit the muskrat take state wide also... because we just don't have the numbers in these rock bottom creeks with three feet of stone to crawl over in order to get to a workable bank ... believe our new twenty year or so... from a regular full season to no season... otter limit here, should also be shared with you all, that still have one or the ones promised one.. with the help by our three year(twenty plus) shut down... maybe you all that were promised one.. should have to wait out the next twenty after we get ours back, before you see one... fair is fair...that way you guys may eventually get it... jim
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Dec 2, 2019 17:36:01 GMT -5
The limit would be per WMU and it is partially due to habitat neglect from the "Forever Wild" clause. Better put, "Forever Wild, Forever Dead". Add to that a biologist that doesn't know a d@mn thing about fisher, too busy getting his phd with another species that is actually expanding it's range.He puts in place regs that protect those little critters where those little critters do not exist, but in turn hurts trappers after other species. I too am dealing with rocky mountain streams, only caught two skinny rats in mink sets this season. I well remember when the bays off of Lake Champlain were full of muskrats.Farmers used to rent out those marshes to trappers. No more. What happened? In other areas there seem to be a lot of rats and those areas still get rented. I'm thinking of getting a muskrat mounted, before they become extinct. I would like to know what DEC is doing about rats, other than to wring their hands. I can't say enough negatively about the otter closure in the Catskills and Mohawk Valley. How long has it been ? Well over 20 years. Some of those guys that closed that season are now retired or dead. Promises are long forgotten. Remember when they were feeding re-introduction otters with contaminated great lakes salmon? Real geniuses ! Same guys that look down at us trappers, and kiss the governor's behind. How about the biologist that had a technician sneaking around checking on trigger reg compliance ? Secret deals during the re-introduction ? You betchya! I have attended more useless meetings with DEC just so they can say they had a "Public Information "meeting. I have contributed more carcasses, including otters, so they can "study".Strictly a one way street, always wanting something from the trapper, but not willing to meet the trapper halfway. Looking for beaver meat for their study or now fisher carcasses. Good luck with that. How many marten and fisher skulls do they need? You wonder why Jim and I are so disgusted.Maybe they should be putting radio collars on muskrats, or putting out track boards, or gathering hair samples from barb wire fences. Just anything to guarantee a pay check.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Dec 2, 2019 17:41:02 GMT -5
Other name for otter: "River Wolves." Not much has a chance once an otter makes up its mind that it's time to eat. Or just kill, they're weasels after all. And muskrats are about the easiest to catch item on their menu. Making some of these political people at DEC in charge of such things is about as sensible as putting child molesters in charge of the Boy Scouts.
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Post by trappermac on Dec 2, 2019 18:29:24 GMT -5
I'm in the southern zone, western. I have never known an otter season in 55 years of trapping. Our muskrat season opens after ice up, closes while still locked up. We've got a new 5 day season for fisher when they are not prime, and a three week bobcat season. What don't I get?
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Post by tony1967 on Dec 2, 2019 19:09:11 GMT -5
No worries! Cuomo says he has the support of upstate sportsmen. I’ve always marveled that we have as many opportunities for hunting and trapping as we do in such a democratic state.
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Post by jsevering on Dec 2, 2019 20:52:56 GMT -5
What you don’t get is proposing a two week season state wide cuts our season here, down by over half. We already lost our otter season so hopefully you all... get your promises from Bob Goetie and others fulfilled… the northern zone kept their otter season and efficient beaver trapping methods… because the powers to be at the time folded to dec once they threatened to close the whole state down… if they didn’t go along with the southern zone closures… so we sit here tripping over the otter sign for the last twenty plus years…
was offered this fall fifty dollars a head by a local trout club… they are seeing them… claiming six at a time while they are fishing, they are a little more than pissed off now they are aware dec closed the season down and they needed to get a damage permit for me to trap them and it would cost them a 100 dollars a head because I can’t keep the pelt, dec closed the otter season down and they would more than likely need to be turned into dec.
If I had my choice I also would prefer trapping fisher the season length I now enjoy which is longer than two weeks… but from mid November to the end of December… would still allow me to pick the time I could target them through that short window of time, if something else was going on, the time we are allowed here now, allows that. A late season more than likely won’t happen because they know people will catch them in canine and coon sets… plain don’t trust us to release them… even though I bet most of the experienced trappers own a catch pole or two.. I’m not advocating cutting the canine or coon season state wide with a later start date, in order for myself and others to enjoy a later fisher season… but who knows… some may think it’s a good idea… maybe even some of the powers to be … that’s where im coming from … jim
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Dec 2, 2019 21:20:05 GMT -5
I'm in 6S. We used to have beaver and otter seasons run concurrently. Closed otter season since - well, since.
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Post by jsevering on Dec 2, 2019 22:29:43 GMT -5
I'm in 6S. We used to have beaver and otter seasons run concurrently. Closed otter season since - well, since. ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………….....
Kinda … sorta gets that way.... jim
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Post by trappermac on Dec 3, 2019 5:43:05 GMT -5
Good points Jim. I guess I am not clear on your populations there, going by what I hear. So I'll stick to my area, and hope for a two week season later in the year after deer season for the western southern zone.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Dec 3, 2019 10:15:46 GMT -5
I certainly would not want to affect anyone's season for any species in any zone of the state. Like Jim, I'm merely expressing my frustration with DEC's failure to properly manage a species. To have a season closure that never should have happened last over 20 years demonstrates the arrogance or stupidity of DEC. The truth of the matter is my suggestions are not realistic because once you close or shorten a season these days you will never get it back. Management? Just look at white tail deer, or October Fisher, or TPUE.
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Post by jsevering on Dec 3, 2019 11:29:50 GMT -5
it is frustrating... I hope the data finally shows the season should be longer than two weeks for you all and dec finally acts on it allowing you all to trap a decent season... I hope they finally come through and open us back up here also for otter... "without taking anything else away"... at least with the new cat season and fisher seasons... a person can still hope and have some faith...maybe.. even though its like …. you know, sliding down a razor blade and ending up in a pool of alcohol wishing they would keep their promises... jim
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Post by milkie62 on Dec 5, 2019 19:22:56 GMT -5
I am in 4C where trapping is pretty good. Only problem is I refuse to specifically target fisher on Oct 25 because I have yet caught anything but blue hide fisher in canine sets. I do not perdonally setup the couple of fisher cubbies I have until after about Nov 20. A couple of my trapping permissions are not accessible till after muzzleloader season per landowner request. His land his rules,I get that part. So I stay mostly in the fields because fisher season is closed,right at primeness time. Why would DEC try to regulate something properly only to open a fisher season when they are not prime ? Would prefer it opening 2 weeks later and closing 2 weeks later or as Al said the month of December.
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