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Post by erict on Sept 9, 2019 19:42:33 GMT -5
Read THIS LINK and weep for the trappers of California. Lest you think California is the only one, here is a REAL GEM - proposed by our ruling NY Dems: JUSTIFICATION written by the bill sponsors for the NY proposal:
Fur farms across the United States raise animals like raccoons, foxes, minks, and chinchillas to kill for their fur, often using cruel and inhumane methods. The Humane Society of the United States estimates that over 100 million animals are killed each year for the fur industry. As animal cruelty laws have progressed, more and more people have chosen to stop supporting the fur industry and turn to faux-fur products or other alternatives. Major luxury fashion brands such as Coach, Versace,Burberry and Michael Kors have recently announced plans to become fur-free, while some retailers and magazines have also announced they will no longer carry or feature clothing and accessories using animal fur. Countries such as Austria, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom have banned the sale of fur products, while a few U.S. cities including Los Angeles and San Francisco have also taken the step. While the popularity of wearing fur has decreased, many retailers still sell fur products, keeping cruel fur farms in business. This legislation would phase in a ban on the sale and distribution of any new fur products in New York State by 2021.
TEXT of the NY proposed law:
The People of the State of New York, represented in Senate and Assembly, do enact as follows:Section 1. The general business law is amended by adding a new section 399-aaaa to read as follows: § 399-aaaa. Prohibition on fur products. 1. Notwithstanding any other law, rule or regulation to the contrary, beginning January first, two thousand twenty-one, it shall be unlawful or sell, offer for sale, display for sale, trade, give, donate, or otherwise distribute a fur product by any means in the state. 2. Notwithstanding any other law, rule or regulation to the contrary, beginning January first, two thousand twenty-one, it shall be unlawful to manufacture a fur product in the state. 3. Subdivision one of this section shall not apply to the sale, offer for sale, display for sale, trade, gift, donation, or other distribution of used fur products by a person not normally engaged in the business of selling fur products, non-profit organization, or second-hand stores including pawn shops. 4. Subdivision two of this section shall not apply to the manufacture of any fur product using fur sourced exclusively from used fur products. 5. Notwithstanding the provisions of subdivisions one and two of this section, the manufacture and sale of fur products shall not be prohibited when such manufacture and sale is for the exclusive distribution to and use by persons who purchase such products in order to conform to or comply with a religious or cultural practice. 6. The fine for a violation of this section shall be up to five hundred dollars for a first violation; up to seven hundred fifty dollars for a second violation; and up to one thousand dollars for each additional violation. Each fur product that does not comply with the provisions of this section shall constitute a separate violation. Costs and fees may be recovered, including attorney's fees 7. For purposes of this section: (a) "Fur" means any animal skin or part thereof with hair, fleece, or fur fibers attached thereto, either in its raw or processed state. "Fur" does not include such skins or parts thereof as are to be converted into leather, which in processing will have the hair, fleece, or fur fiber completely removed; cowhide with hair attached thereto; or lambskin or sheepskin with fleece attached thereto. (b) "Fur product" means any article of clothing or covering for any part of the body, or any fashion accessory, including but not limited to handbags, shoes, slippers, hats, earmuffs, scarves, shawls, gloves, jewelry, and key chains, that is made in whole or in part of fur. (c) "Used fur product" means a fur product that a person has acquired for his or her own use and worn. § 2. This act shall take effect immediately.
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Post by walleyed on Sept 10, 2019 6:30:05 GMT -5
No worries. Our paid Lobbyist, David Miller, will take care of it, Right ? w
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Post by hardwoodcharlie on Sept 10, 2019 6:34:37 GMT -5
("Fur" does not include such skins or parts thereof as are to be converted into leather, which in processing will have the hair, fleece, or fur fiber completely removed; cowhide with hair attached thereto; or lambskin or sheepskin with fleece attached thereto.)
How many morons did it take to come up with this? So as long as the hide is processed for leather it’s acceptable....must be their not ready to give up certain products in their own lifestyle...special kind of stupid right there. The sad thing is this is so dumb you would think it’s a joke.but I no it’s not. How anybody with an ounce of common sense could sit down and have a conversation with these people with out swatting them is beyond me.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Sept 14, 2019 10:02:05 GMT -5
"No Worries"? While I have great confidence in Dave Miller I also note that the New York legislature is dominated by the Democrats. That, coupled with a dictator of a governor makes a scary situation. I do believe that New York is targeted. I hope that you are right Mr. Walleyed.
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Post by walleyed on Sept 15, 2019 7:37:19 GMT -5
"No Worries"? While I have great confidence in Dave Miller I also note that the New York legislature is dominated by the Democrats. That, coupled with a dictator of a governor makes a scary situation. I do believe that New York is targeted. I hope that you are right Mr. Walleyed. OOPS, I must have left out the sarcasm font when typing "No Worries". What worries me is we have between 10,000 and 14,000 licensed trappers in this State, but only around 2,500 or less are members of New York State Trapper's Association. What worries me is The fact that most of Our trapper's are between 55 and 75 years of age. What worries me is that when attending our recent NYSTA convention is I saw almost no youth trappers in attendance, Ditto for Camp ZERBE. Believe me AL, We've got plenty to worry about. We are living on borrowed time. w
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austin
test results are back... I am joerat's daddy
Posts: 483
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Post by austin on Sept 16, 2019 6:06:44 GMT -5
I have repeatedly said that sustained low fur prices will be the demise of recreational fur trapping since fur prices crashed several years ago. A number of middle-age (and older) trappers have publicly blasted me for saying that, proverbial shoot the messenger reaction which is basic human nature behavior. Good news is I couldn't possibly care less about them or that Fur sale prices attract new trappers AND retain new trappers long enough for the sport to become ingrained. A relatively small percentage of today's youth will dabble with trapping but most will lose interest in a year or three. Scant few will stick with it thru their crucial 20s to 30s age range years as adult life takes over. Because without profitable fur sale results, what is the point in their minds? Most of us here will easily live long enough to see the end of all trapping organizations, closed up and done. Along with paper print magazines. Because both of those concepts are foreign to modern society. People in their 20s and 30s know nothing about volunteer organizations that regularly meet in person, elected official positions or Robert's Rules Of Order. Nor do they read anything that's not on their smartphone screens. Totally outdated, foreign concepts to them. None of us here like those facts, but that doesn't change the reality of truth. We are in the latter stages of society evolving away from wild fur use and pursuit. I'll chase $3 - $4 muskrats all season but not <$2 or $1 averages. When the time comes that I'm spending money to traps rats all season, I won't. Too many other things to do of equal interest. For the same reason I won't longline $6 average red fox. IF one can even find willing speculators to pay a $6 avg on fox this season. Prices recovery would breathe some life into the extended future of sport trapping. But global fashion for women has shifted from bulky fur "old fashion" glamor to skin-tight, body-hugging fashion. Modern youth in general are detached from the land and lack the work ethic and/or level of interest to run serious traplines at a fiscal loss. Evolution of society. It is what is is. Carpe Diem. Let's make this season ahead memorable.
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Post by trappermac on Sept 16, 2019 8:54:11 GMT -5
Well I'm an old guy I guess, and although I agree that monetary reward for fur may play into things a bit I do not think of it as a primary reason. If rats paid $2 Austin you'd still be doing it, albeit in a smaller fashion. Its what you do, its in you and you have a passion for it. If the season opened and you sat it would drive you nuts, the time in the swamps, that fur floating in the morning, the smell of a freshly skinned rat hide...be honest.
I for one never got into trapping for the money as a kid, it was a natural companion to my passion for hunting and fishing. Growing up before smart phones, video games, dvds, 2000 channels and netflix, fast food, etc....we made the woods and creeks our playground. We went from BB guns at 10 years old to shotguns at 16, if we didn't have football practice we hunted after school. Every friend I had got into it because their dad or grandfather did it. Many also trapped, never had so much competition as I did back then right in my own neighborhood. And this was suburbia. Fur didn't pay squat but it beat a paper route or $3 per week allowance. Mainly we rolled anything we made over into more traps or stretchers, etc. And in all the years I have trapped there were only a couple years in the late 70's that profit mattered to me as I went at it full time. All the other years I was a hobby trapper, doing it because I enjoy it. Many years it was only a week at Xmas or a weekend on a marsh due to work and a young family, but always found a way to get a line in. Fur prices were so bad at times I didn't even pay attention, just sold and left, the time doing it enough satisfaction.
The world has changed, what we valued in our youth is no longer valued by todays. Parents buy them what they want, video games and smart phones are great babysitters, less parents enjoy the outdoors. More pressure from the anti's.Kids have no one outdoors oriented to emulate as we did. We enjoyed a good fort in the woods, fortnite is the closest they get to that.
California lost trapping because they were regulated out of the sport, last year there were 76 licensed trappers in the state that were not nuisance trappers. They had no fight, nobody to fight, writing was on the wall.
And like Bob says, no kids coming into it, have heard that from all the conventions this year. And only a fraction of trappers in this state join NYSTA. Thats a shame. If it ends its because of lack of interest, when all us old guys die off that fraction will fade away.
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austin
test results are back... I am joerat's daddy
Posts: 483
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Post by austin on Sept 17, 2019 6:37:56 GMT -5
Well I'm an old guy I guess, and although I agree that monetary reward for fur may play into things a bit I do not think of it as a primary reason. If rats paid $2 Austin you'd still be doing it, albeit in a smaller fashion. Its what you do, its in you and you have a passion for it. If the season opened and you sat it would drive you nuts, the time in the swamps, that fur floating in the morning, the smell of a freshly skinned rat hide...be honest. The world has changed, what we valued in our youth is no longer valued by todays. Parents buy them what they want, video games and smart phones are great babysitters, less parents enjoy the outdoors. More pressure from the anti's.Kids have no one outdoors oriented to emulate as we did. We enjoyed a good fort in the woods, fortnite is the closest they get to that. California lost trapping because they were regulated out of the sport, last year there were 76 licensed trappers in the state that were not nuisance trappers. They had no fight, nobody to fight, writing was on the wall. And like Bob says, no kids coming into it, have heard that from all the conventions this year. And only a fraction of trappers in this state join NYSTA. Thats a shame. If it ends its because of lack of interest, when all us old guys die off that fraction will fade away. you are 100% correct, I would still dabble with local rats on a small scale until no longer possible. But I wouldn't lose money to spend months logging miles across longline efforts. Everything else also 100% correct. Society in general has evolved away from fur trapping in particular, organized groups or clubs and in-person meetings, etc. Can't stop those changes, like it or not.
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Post by dana i on Sept 19, 2019 8:42:55 GMT -5
No worries. Our paid Lobbyist, David Miller, will take care of it, Right ? w Seems that you guys don't know that Dave Miller has retired. He has been working with a replacement preparing him for the job. The new lobbyist going forward is going to be Dave Leibig.
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Post by whartonrattrapper on Sept 19, 2019 12:11:08 GMT -5
No worries. Our paid Lobbyist, David Miller, will take care of it, Right ? w Seems that you guys don't know that Dave Miller has retired. He has been working with a replacement preparing him for the job. The new lobbyist going forward is going to be Dave Leibig. Only a select few know of the secret workings in NYSTA.
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Post by walleyed on Sept 22, 2019 6:12:05 GMT -5
No worries. Our paid Lobbyist, David Miller, will take care of it, Right ? w Seems that you guys don't know that Dave Miller has retired. He has been working with a replacement preparing him for the job. The new lobbyist going forward is going to be Dave Leibig. Seems you are right. It's hard to keep up with what is happening since the board of directors did away with the "Traplines" news letter. The website that supposedly replaced it is sorely lacking in timely news, for this trapper anyway. w
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Sept 23, 2019 9:51:36 GMT -5
Trappermac and Walleyed are correct. I am 81 years old and have been trapping since I was 13. Sad as it is I see very few youths getting involved and I do believe that we are the last of a breed. I have never made money trapping when you figure in gas,trapping supplies and wear and tear on my vehicle. I am not a Big Time trapper. I do it because I love it. The newsletter was dropped because of the expense. I argued for years that we needed to have better communications with our members, only to fall upon deaf ears, and the response that they had nothing to report. I've been around long enough to remember when all NYSTA officers and Directors were required to write something for the magazine. That has fallen by the wayside. Some Directors have no communication at all with their members, the website is a complete failure, I well remember when NYSTA was one of the leading sportsman organizations in the state. Today, sadly, it has become the "Good Old Boys" club. Still, it is the only thing protecting NY trappers. As long as I can remember there has been nothing but drama.Gossip rules the day. Only a handful of dedicated people remain. Sorry, but I see much of the same in the NTA and FTA and NRA. The Pat Arnold camps were a great idea, but unfortunately I see them as a drop in the bucket with new trappers. Todays kids are too busy looking at their phones. How many do you eber see riding down the road on their bike, with a fishing pole? Sorry to be so negative, but I call it the way I see it.
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tomsnare
It's a good time to be a trapper!
Posts: 514
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Post by tomsnare on Sept 25, 2019 21:05:14 GMT -5
Here in New Mexico we have been/are targeted by several ARF groups who received a bunch of money. We have a strong coalition but we are up against a Dem Gov, both leglislative branches and a Game Dept that is starting to resemble the one I left in NY. we are old and it seems as though the majority of trappers have their head in a dark place with the attitude that it won't happen here BUT its always been that way even during the high dollar days in NY it was always a few carrying the rest.The price out here is pretty good so you would think a lot of trappers would be helping us, nope! I'am optimistic that this fight is ours to lose, I've participated in trapper training in both states and have found a lot of interest in what we do. Trapping seems almost magical to these young people, we (NMTA) do a 3 hour program at the Whittington Ctr and the counslers always have to come get the kids, our annual meeting has quite a few kids as do the fur auction. I've spent a lot of time and money promoting trapping, I view this as insurance and a big bonus is all the people I've met and places I get to see and trap.-----It's still a good time to be a trapper!
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Post by walleyed on Sept 26, 2019 6:22:52 GMT -5
Here in New Mexico we have been/are targeted by several ARF groups who received a bunch of money. We have a strong coalition but we are up against a Dem Gov, both leglislative branches and a Game Dept that is starting to resemble the one I left in NY. we are old and it seems as though the majority of trappers have their head in a dark place with the attitude that it won't happen here BUT its always been that way even during the high dollar days in NY it was always a few carrying the rest.The price out here is pretty good so you would think a lot of trappers would be helping us, nope! I'am optimistic that this fight is ours to lose, I've participated in trapper training in both states and have found a lot of interest in what we do. Trapping seems almost magical to these young people, we (NMTA) do a 3 hour program at the Whittington Ctr and the counslers always have to come get the kids, our annual meeting has quite a few kids as do the fur auction. I've spent a lot of time and money promoting trapping, I view this as insurance and a big bonus is all the people I've met and places I get to see and trap.-----It's still a good time to be a trapper! Great Positive Post, Tom. Thank you. w
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Sept 26, 2019 21:37:24 GMT -5
Tom refers to the game department that he left behind in NY. I envy him for choosing this state. There are a few good biologists in DEC, but overall Wildlife Biology is pathetic. For example an otter closure, how many years ago, in areas where otters were live trapped for the western reintroduction program. What a disgrace! What mental giants were feeding those otters contaminated salmon from the great lakes? Look at the fisher fiasco; opening a season in the southern tier in October. Shortening the Adirondack season, but on the wrong end. They favor the term "trophy" and ignore quality. New York fur is a renewable resource that should be harvested when is at best. Pennsylvania has opened a limited fisher season in late December, but not New York.Something's missing here and I think it's brains. Regulations have been introduced prohibiting baited conibears after the marten season to protect the marten, only trouble is that these regs extend well into areas where there are no marten. How about a biologist sending out a tech to peek at trapper's sets to see if they are complying with the trigger regulations? Why does it take decades to get things done? The biologists are so scared for their jobs that if the governor ever stops short their will be a dreadful accident. Years ago they asked me to participate in the Fisher BMP study. Problem was they would not listen to me and I could only use the traps they allowed. How many useless meetings have I attended so that could satisfy their "public meetings" only for them to ignore sound suggestions to only twist things of their choosing. I do not profess to be a biologist, but I have years of trapping experience, and I can shoot holes through college theories like TPUE. How many skulls and carcasses must we submit before they get their info? I could go on and on. Tom was smart. He could see through all of that crap. Disgusted in New York.
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Post by milkie62 on Sept 27, 2019 9:05:55 GMT -5
Seems that you guys don't know that Dave Miller has retired. He has been working with a replacement preparing him for the job. The new lobbyist going forward is going to be Dave Leibig. Only a select few know of the secret workings in NYSTA. I would like to know the "secret" workings of NYSTA since I am on the BOD's. Maybe the one's that are armchair quarterbacks should show up to a quarterly meeting from time to time or give a little time and show up at a convention ahead of time and help setup.This is only the 2nd convention that I have helped at and had to take a weeks vacation time from my regular job in order not to be written up again for not showing up for work like I did last year. I have had my position for a tad over a year and can almost tell anybody who will be at a meeting and what chair that they will be sitting at. So before throwing stones,one should make sure they are not be standing behind a glass door. So if all licensed NYS trappers gave a little----some do not even belong to NYSTA, our organization would be a whole lot better. Oh and BTW, I usually use a good amount of mink oil after I shower so any BS just slides right off.
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Post by whartonrattrapper on Sept 27, 2019 9:43:03 GMT -5
Only a select few know of the secret workings in NYSTA. I would like to know the "secret" workings of NYSTA since I am on the BOD's. Maybe the one's that are armchair quarterbacks should show up to a quarterly meeting from time to time or give a little time and show up at a convention ahead of time and help setup.This is only the 2nd convention that I have helped at and had to take a weeks vacation time from my regular job in order not to be written up again for not showing up for work like I did last year. I have had my position for a tad over a year and can almost tell anybody who will be at a meeting and what chair that they will be sitting at. So before throwing stones,one should make sure they are not be standing behind a glass door. So if all licensed NYS trappers gave a little----some do not even belong to NYSTA, our organization would be a whole lot better. Oh and BTW, I usually use a good amount of mink oil after I shower so any BS just slides right off. LOL So you complain about getting wrote up because just don't show up for work to attend a trapping convention? Now your on the BOD of NYSTA. I bet in another couple of years you will get an award from NYSTA . Hang in there buddy.
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Post by milkie62 on Sept 27, 2019 10:15:10 GMT -5
I would like to know the "secret" workings of NYSTA since I am on the BOD's. Maybe the one's that are armchair quarterbacks should show up to a quarterly meeting from time to time or give a little time and show up at a convention ahead of time and help setup.This is only the 2nd convention that I have helped at and had to take a weeks vacation time from my regular job in order not to be written up again for not showing up for work like I did last year. I have had my position for a tad over a year and can almost tell anybody who will be at a meeting and what chair that they will be sitting at. So before throwing stones,one should make sure they are not be standing behind a glass door. So if all licensed NYS trappers gave a little----some do not even belong to NYSTA, our organization would be a whole lot better. Oh and BTW, I usually use a good amount of mink oil after I shower so any BS just slides right off. LOL So you complain about getting wrote up because just don't show up for work to attend a trapping convention? Now your on the BOD of NYSTA. I bet in another couple of years you will get an award from NYSTA . Hang in there buddy. No, I was on the BOD's before getting written up at work. I did not get your name. Do you want to sign up to work the NYSTA booth next year ? We can sure use the help. Or take-down help most of Sunday morning ? Like I said armchair quarterbacks should not throw stones while standing behind their center who is made of glass. I have told NYSTA that hopefully I am in for the long-haul.I will not be sending an email that I quit immediately like others have. Unless of course health issues or family issues come up.But will make for a healthy transition if it does happen.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Sept 27, 2019 13:46:15 GMT -5
I do not believe that there are secret workings within NYSTA. I am a Past President and have held every position except Treasurer. I spent years showing up on Tuesday to set up for the convention, as well as take down on sunday. I've been involved since the conventions at Piseco Lake.I'm not trying to blow my own horn, but I think I've pulled my share. My big complaint is the lack of communication with the membership.That complaint has fallen on deaf ears. The website is a disaster. Just try to get on it or read the minutes of a director's meeting. How many knew about the change in lobbyist from Dave Miller to Dave Liebig? I did not,and that is what I'm talking about.How many Directors sit there once every few months but fail to pass the info down to the average member? The only report that I get is that of the President in the Trapper's Post. Where are the other reports from the officers and Directors? I fully understand how important NYSTA is in protecting our rights, especially with representation in Albany. I also recognize that it is an organization of volunteers with other things in their lives besides trapping. An honest question? How many trappers would become members if it were not for the subscription to the Trappers Post? I fear not very many. I will always support NYSTA, but I also see stagnation. I don't care to drive a few hours each way to listen to someone report a maple festival or fur sale that their local club participated in. Half of the time DEC doesn't show up, and I really don't care to argue about paying the postage. Very good members have been shoved aside and look at the turn over just in officers. NYSTA simply can not remain a "Good Old Boys" club. It was I that made the comment "I don't buy it" with the Treasurer's report. How many years ago did that happen? And the matter still is not resolved.That's what I'm talking about when I say "Good Old Boys Club". On the other hand I must congratulate the man that stepped in at the last minute to run the convention after the VP quit. My hat is off to him and I think the NYSTA convention is one of the best around. So I'm not all negative. Besides protecting my trapping rights in an ultra nliberal state for many years I've also made many, many good friends because of NYSTA.
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Post by trappermac on Sept 27, 2019 15:17:14 GMT -5
I knew nothing about Miller stepping down, and I don't think I should have to attend a quarterly meeting to find that out. I'm a member, I could have been informed via TP, the website, via email (yes, I have provided mine for "communicative" purposes supposedly), or even on here. The convention needed help...did anyone reach out for that? Was a time when a VP used to reach out on this site and get people to commit to help. But the "club" has apparently banned this site it seems so that don't happen anymore. For christ sake, don't blame paying members for not being satisfied with the lack of communication and then put yourself on a pedestal for "doing more than others" as a defense to that. So you got written up at work, I guess that's our fault. Do something about the poor communication and I'll put you on the pedestal myself.
And Al makes good points above.
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Post by tony1967 on Sept 27, 2019 17:49:16 GMT -5
I have volunteered twice previously and never been contacted to help. Why keep volunteering if I’m not going to have anyone reach out to have me help? I feel like I tried and apparently wasn’t needed. Like it was said above, if help is needed, just ask and I’m sure folks would step up.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Sept 27, 2019 18:58:35 GMT -5
Tony,
Help is ALWAYS needed. Just show up. Also, come to a Director's Meeting. We are always looking for good men to get involved.
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Post by milkie62 on Sept 27, 2019 21:35:33 GMT -5
Well about Dave Miller retiring...... He stood up at the ANNUAL MEETING during the convention and stated he was retiring. Even if the "Traplines" was still out there, it would have probably would not be published yet to where it would have stated he was retiring. And as painted paw stated HELP is always needed at the convention.Setup and take down. It does not happen by magic. Either contact an officer,show up early before the convention starts,show up at the BOD meeting just prior to the convention,stay late on Saturday,show up early on Sunday,give the vp a call or email....alot of ways to get in touch to help.There is no time to write out personal invitations for help.Painted paw---it was brought up at a meeting to send out a yearly newsletter but somebody needs to step up and do it.
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austin
test results are back... I am joerat's daddy
Posts: 483
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Post by austin on Sept 28, 2019 4:23:03 GMT -5
imo the NYSTA website was/is neglected because it's a lot of work (or cost) to build one, relatively few people visit them to make the maintenance worthwhile. Websites are dated mediums, few people use them. The communication world is FaceBook, Twitter, group text messages. Like it or not, those are the facts. It's well documented that trappers in general are among the most ultra-conservative and resistant to change of most any people out there. You all are describing that process in motion. I used to get blasted for pointing out the fact that websites, paper communications, organizations that require meetings in person have shelf lives soon to expire. We are witnessing that in this thread. A few over-worked volunteers versus too many tasks. No new young volunteers coming in to boost or replace. None on the visible horizon, either.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Sept 28, 2019 9:29:56 GMT -5
Interesting. I'm being serious, it IS true that "communication" mediums have changed. No one's chiseling things in stone anymore, no trappers are writing on "the leather wall," Gutenburg isn't pressing out books anymore. The act of communicating is in essence NOTHING more or less than taking the thoughts from one mind and transferring them into the mind of others. Whether by body language, spoken word or writing, even art - it's really as simple as that. And we humans, being human, will always tend to seek the path of least resistance. One current example is President Trump - why use an unreliable means of getting across to the people what you're trying to say? Hello, Twitter, goodbye fake news! BUT... we are still human, and as such are social creatures. Eventually we need to assemble, otherwise what's the use of conventions, fur sales like Flatiron, etc.? My point is, we need BOTH. I still use tractors built in the 50s, BECAUSE THEY STILL GET THE JOB DONE THAT I NEED TO GET DONE. For bigger tasks?, they don't fit the bill, but that simple fact does not make them less valuable to me. They just aren't made anymore because they were replaced by improved models rendering them obsolete (as in just try finding PARTS for them anymore!). I think sites like this will never be entirely replaced or become 100% obsolete, but I can see the day when it will simply become an economic impracticality to keep it/them going. Money flows to the "flash." Websites inherently have little or no flash. That's not a judgment, that's just fact. And it's not because they lost the flash they may have had, it's that other NEW AND IMPROVED! media with a lot more flash have arrived. Just look at everything people have written, above: It's not said because of animosity or enmity toward "the other guy." It's because each party feels like they've been snubbed - disrespected? - by the other. Girl: You don't call me anymore. Boy: Phone works both ways, y'know. Wife: You don't tell me you love me anymore! Husband: I told you ONCE, and THAT'S FOREVER! Membership: y u not tell us stuff no mor? BOD: Um, didn't know we NEEDED to... Neither party is wrong, but both parties are wrong. You know what I mean. Communication is subject to interpretation. Just because we speak the same language doesn't mean we don't all still have, need, and use an interpreter - our brain and our past experiences. Babies aren't born knowing formal language, they LEARN it. Look at the Navaho Code Talkers. If not born to it, you can never learn it. Ask the Japanese in WWII how important they thought that it would be to understand THAT kind of communication. We all learn ABOUT communication, but we do not all properly learn the HOW and WHY of it. Point is, we have inherent needs to communicate. Lack of communication, miscommunication, all that jazz - we don't generally recognize that it's the root of most of the strife in life. And while modern forms of communication have made everything FASTER, it's not automatically BETTER; and the need for actual physical getting together has never and will never be replaced. Whether ancient clans getting together at regular intervals, olden days trappers Rendezvous, modern conventions, fur sales; no different from parties, barbeques, camping, weddings, funerals, et al. So communicate. Take the initiative. If you get no response, do what you think is the best thing to do, just do it anyway, better to ask forgiveness than permission. Who knows, you just might come up with something no one's ever even thought of doing, or doing something a different way, or whatever. And yeah, trappers are the worst at communicating. I sometimes wonder if that's backwards, as in bad communicators become trappers BECAUSE we don't want anything around us that we have to talk to or with. And that brings us back 'round to this: Communication can be used as a form of distraction, the greatest bane to success ever devised... look where this thread has gone. It started out as an alarm call to unite us, and - we've expressed our "legitimate," righteous reasons for division. OK, someone forgot that the soapbox was within my reach. I'm off it now.
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