traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Feb 23, 2015 10:34:59 GMT -5
""mean annual fisher harvest in southeastern new york after 2006 were stable (518 fishers), therefore, the increase in the proportions trapped in this zone reflects a declining fisher harvest in northern new york.""
Jim, help me here... So are they saying that the fishers in the Dacks got a U-Haul and moved? Or that the fisher population is a finite number and therefore if take increases in one area that means another area has had a population decline? That the fisher population is X and if the increase in area Y means that the population in area A has to have gone down? And they said the harvest in the SE zone was "stable" so "therefore, the increase in the proportions trapped in this zone reflects a declining fisher harvest in northern new york.""
WHAT THE HELL IS THAT??? If the harvest is stable how can that mean there is an increase?? IF a farmer harvests X bushels of corn from a plot (A) each year and this year he harvests X bushels of corn again, would he call that an increase? Does it mean that if his plot (B) down the road produced 0 bushels, because he built a house on it, would it mean that he get MORE corn in parcel A because the corn in parcel B moved there???
IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by jsevering on Feb 23, 2015 11:00:54 GMT -5
i don't know jerry... its all in the eyes of the beholder i guess... i do know they made three and ten year suggestions in one part of their proposed fisher plan... we all know from other areas, with a different species and promised time limits that proposed studies.... three years equals twenty plus or minus and still counting... so you tell me.... jim
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Post by silverfox on Feb 23, 2015 11:16:46 GMT -5
oh how my head hurts!! ive read the plan TWICE (and feel dumber for it) do i think the decision has already been made and this is merely a check the block to appease the trapping community, yes i do but that is just my opinion and it will not stop me from sending in my comments, ive followed thru this thread silently as well, figuring to extract some info from some of the educated folk here and would just like to add what i know from personal experience: LIMITS DO NOT WORK! i grew up having to follow a 2 fisher limit and it was common knowledge and common practice for trappers to just purchase a $5.00 license for all family members (pre-trapper ed requirement days) therefore creating for themselves a "household limit" (for some this is nothing but a morale issue, but for many its considered a viable loophole to be exploited) and no its not the same as deer limits, its a bit easier to take family members on ur line once to help make sets, and then those sets become limit catchers for every trapper id# thats attached to those traps, just something else to think about and ad when generating your comments
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Feb 23, 2015 11:16:47 GMT -5
They can't admit that "Forever Wild" does indeed equal "Forever Dead". So they are looking for ANYTHING to blame for their failed policies... Not saying I am hoping for this, but imagine a large portion of the "forever dead" zone having a MASSIVE forest fire... And then the ensuing boom in wildlife populations.... It's common sense, which we all know the DEC and NYS does NOT possess. Go looking for deer after logging is done in an area.. I LOVE that. All that new growth. Same for trapping it.
Food and SUITABLE habitat= wildlife... And the DEC/NYS do not get that simple fact
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Post by kirkwooder on Feb 23, 2015 14:26:51 GMT -5
They can't admit that "Forever Wild" does indeed equal "Forever Dead". So they are looking for ANYTHING to blame for their failed policies... Not saying I am hoping for this, but imagine a large portion of the "forever dead" zone having a MASSIVE forest fire... And then the ensuing boom in wildlife populations.... It's common sense, which we all know the DEC and NYS does NOT possess. Go looking for deer after logging is done in an area.. I LOVE that. All that new growth. Same for trapping it. Food and SUITABLE habitat= wildlife... And the DEC/NYS do not get that simple fact The biggest problem there, is that the State wouldn't let it burn. They would spend billions of dollars and every available resource, including the lives of the fire fighters, to save their precious "forever wild" forest. Forget that the burn is a natural reboot for nature.
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Feb 23, 2015 14:45:05 GMT -5
They can't admit that "Forever Wild" does indeed equal "Forever Dead". So they are looking for ANYTHING to blame for their failed policies... Not saying I am hoping for this, but imagine a large portion of the "forever dead" zone having a MASSIVE forest fire... And then the ensuing boom in wildlife populations.... It's common sense, which we all know the DEC and NYS does NOT possess. Go looking for deer after logging is done in an area.. I LOVE that. All that new growth. Same for trapping it. Food and SUITABLE habitat= wildlife... And the DEC/NYS do not get that simple fact The biggest problem there, is that the State wouldn't let it burn. They would spend billions of dollars and every available resource, including the lives of the fire fighters, to save their precious "forever wild" forest. Forget that the burn is a natural reboot for nature. 100% EXACTLY DEAD ON!!! Oh and they would justify it (stopping the fire) in some interesting ways I am sure. The USFS does burns. The Pine Bush in Albany has burns done. And why? Why do they do that? I have to take this study in small doses- On my 2nd trip through it. Some studies that I have read, while being geared to the scientific community for sure, were readable.. This one is all over the place and is nowhere even remotely close to being coherent. It's like they copied and pasted different studies together. I CANNOT follow where they are going with it. I bet they got that Jonathan Gruber guy to help make it incoherent to cover up the real goal. Make it hard to read and follow so people give up and will just listen to what the authors say it means. My hat is off to the NYSTA for taking the time to try and decipher this and formulating a good response for us to follow. Random thought: Perhaps this "study" is a perfect example of bureaucracy trying to defend it's existence
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Feb 23, 2015 14:47:33 GMT -5
Did these brain trusts even bother to check the ups and downs of the fisher harvest vs the price of fisher pelts? Or would that have been too easy? (If they did- I may have missed that as my eyes were turning red...)
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Post by jsevering on Feb 23, 2015 14:54:58 GMT -5
100-150 bucks is what they said... they must not keep up too awful well with the market... but the need to kill the greed is clearly shown... sorry gotta go... you know, steal a lollipop from the grandkid.... jim
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Post by papabear on Feb 23, 2015 15:12:53 GMT -5
To whom it may concern, I have reviewed the proposed Fisher Management Plan and am in support of the following listed, Goals Objectives & Strategies ONLY AS NOTED!
Objective 1.1: In Northern and Southastern New York, monitor harvest and population trends through the collection of harvest and survey data. Strategies 1.1.1 Collect fisher harvest data, including trapper effort and biological data,
Strategies 1.1.2 Collect fisher survey data in Northern New York using noninvasive methods
Objective 1.2: Determine fisher distribution and abundance in Central/Western New York and document continued expantion of fisher populations in this management zone Strategies 1.2.1 Continue collection of verifiable fisher occurrence records from the public through Furbearer Observation Reporting System, Strategies 1.2.2 Continue collection of fisher sightings through Bowhunter Sighting Log and trapper mail survey.
Strategies 1.2.3 Continue camera trapping/hair snare surveys for Fishers duringwinter 2014~2015 to assess distribution and abundance within an occupancy modeling/SCR sampling design.
Objective 2.1 Achieve a target harvest rate that is <20% of the fisher population in Adirondack WMU's of Northern New York.....Strike attached paragraph.......add paragraph; No regulatory changes until key TPUE and updated accurate population density studies are concluded Strategy 2.1.1 STRIKE IN ITS ENTIRETY......Replace with Alternate Harvest Management Option 4. Maintain current fisher trapping seasons in Adirondack WMU's with no regulatory changes.
Objective 2.2: Open a fisher trapping season in portions of Central/Western New York. Strategies 2.2.1 Consider opening a (strike the word: limited) trapping season, beginning 2015, for any WMU aggregate in Central/Western New York where observed or predicted occcupancy by fishers is >35% based on camera trap surveys conducted during 2013 and 2014
Strategies 2.2.2 Consider opening a (strike the word:limited) trapping season, beginning in 2018 or later, for additional WMU aggregates where observed or predicted occupancy by fishers is >35% based on camera trap surveys conducted during 2013~2014 or later.
Strategies 2.2.3 STRIKE IN ITS ENTIRETY;.... Replace with Alternate Harvest Management Option 2. Open a fisher trapping season with harvest regulations similar to those existing or proposed for Adirondack WMU's, Northern New York, or Southeastern New York ( for example no bag limit; 46 day season).
Objective 2.3: Conduct outreach to increase public understading, appreciation, and support of fishers as a sustainable wildlife resource in New York State.
Strategies 2.6.1 Provide information on fisher natural history, furbeares as a renewable natural resource, trapping seasons, research, and Citizen Science opportunities via NYSDEC web pages and media outlets (e.g. newspaper and television interviews, Conservationist and other magazines).
Regards
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 693
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Post by paintedpaw on Feb 23, 2015 15:35:23 GMT -5
Years ago Adirondack natives deliberately set fires to mountains in order to produce blueberries. With that came new growth and wildlife. I'm not advocating burning down the Adirondacks, but controlled burns certainly have their place. Of course DEC's hands are tied in this regard because of the overly restrictive restrictions of the Forest Preserve.I, myself fought fires when I was A DEC Ranger on Lake George. This is unlike the policies in the National Parks where they just let it burn. Remember the Yellowstone fires? I saw with my own eyes the regrowth that has happened since those fires. Sadly I don't think we will ever see a change towards responsible management in the Adirondacks.
Let me address another issue in the proposed plan; season dates. DEC has cited the Cornell/DEC survey as the basis for the October 25 opening dates. They claim the survey showed a 57% favorability towards the October date. This is NOT the results of the JTI survey, which I wrote, and counted for NYSTA. DEC knows that. I maintain that the Cornell/DEC survey was flawed with some very carefully worded questions in order to trap trappers do that DEC could get the answers they wanted.Furthermore let me point out that many of the southern zone canine and coon trappers did want an October 25 or earlier opening because of conflicts once the deer season opened. I understand that and where they are coming from,but it certainly altered the survey. A fisher season that runs in December,similar to that in neighboring Pennsylvania would eliminate much of the problems perceived by the canine trappers in the southern tier. Vermont and New Hampshire run their fisher season during December when the pelts are prime. Certainly they have fox, coon, and coyote trapping, without problems.We should do the same at least in the Adirondacks. As a northern zone trapper we have had a fisher opening roughly the same date as northern deer season. We have repeatedly have pleaded with DEC to have a later season, only to be met with this determined tunnel vision. Recently I had a DEC biologist get angry with me when I asked how much consideration is given to pelt quality and primeness.Why are they so d@mn determined to have that early season? Someone needs to pull their head out of you know where. DEC ios supposed to represent trappers too! It bothers me greatly to see this trend in DEC thinking towards "trophy" animals and quotas. Trapping is not all about public recreation, although it does provide that . DEC just doesn't get it; or care. Trapping is our heritage, and in many locations a rural life styles.Trapping incomes to a lot of families means ability to buy Christmas presents, or a cord of wood, or help pay the mortgage or taxes.To some that may not mean much, but to a lot of families it is very important. The failure of DEC to set trapping seasons when the pelts are prime, and to manage to protect the species is out and out wrong. I don't give a big fat rat's behind about all of the political bull----. Someone needs to pull their head out of their arse and do what is right!
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Feb 23, 2015 16:53:05 GMT -5
I wait for the NYSTA/JTI post here before submitting my personal comments to this process. But meanwhile, I'll add the fact that early seasons when fur is not yet prime serves zero purpose to anyone period.
If trapping for valued furs, an October season fails to achieve that. Any weasel family member is blue and half worthless then, no exceptions.
If trapping for a trophy specimen, an October season fails to achieve that either. It costs the same money to tan our mount an unprime, no-fur specimen fisher as it does a prime, luxurious specimen. More importantly, who wants to burn their one measly "coveted" tag on a trophy specimen that is sub-par when taken too early? That is absolutely no different than shooting what would be a 170" B&C whitetail buck in late summer when his rack is still 130s. The potential was there for a true memorable specimen... but the timing of harvest is all wrong.
Regardless all else, a season open of 10/25 for fisher is all wrong and nothing right about it, period.
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Post by papabear on Feb 23, 2015 19:04:53 GMT -5
Dear Mr Austin, Most of us are waiting for JTI and NYSTA input and guidance before submitting comment! My comments, when ready, will echo and be in step with that of NYSTA and JTI
Friends, to share with those who dont have a copy of the Fisher Management plan...... in my post above I have taken the liberty to amend the Goals, Objectives & Strategies within the confines of what they have to offer and they have presented in the draft....... The tricky part comes with what is not written or obvious in the proposal but would result in further rule and possible regulatory changes (as a result of implementation) should some of the objectives and strategies (mainly strategies 2.1.1 & 2.2.3)get passed. (just one example.... no bait with bodygrips during a closed fisher season).
We need to thoughtfully but aggressively pick this plan apart to stop it.
Regards
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Post by herm on Feb 23, 2015 19:42:41 GMT -5
I have to ask, why did we as trappers go along with the DECs early bobcat season in the southerntier in Western NY if we were concerned about fur primness? Add to this the fact that the season being open only during bow season prevented houndsmen the opportunity to harvest a bobcat because of the conflicts that would occure with the deer hunters. Seems to me if we took a stand two years ago much of what is now occuring might have been stopped back then.
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Post by jsevering on Feb 24, 2015 10:40:53 GMT -5
think the reason in part is the same reason, why we have an early fisher season: "a strong suggestion"
the dec feels strongly that trapping seasons for all land species should open on the same (concurrent)date but recognizes that separate opening dates for fisher /marten season could be possible which option would you prefer. (from table C4 of the plan.)
think most with no hard felt hands on experience of the change in fur quality of a particular spicies, until they felt it first hand, would follow a strong suggestion for season start dates, for what they actually do trap... I also think that cornell and dec are smart enough to realize that....
i also think they know they are hard selling a flawed so called "trophy animal" to the people they are hoping to influence with a proposed one trap, eight check day, one limit fisher season...
bet some will believe that is actually a fur season and a flat fisher will fetch them 100-150 bucks in the recent real time market... just a historical note but...the year before they opened in the catskills, a good prime male fisher would fetch a high of 120 bucks ... next year they were at 40... all i know is 120 bucks in the eighties sure lasted and went a lot further and there was no take limit imposed... jim
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 693
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Post by paintedpaw on Feb 24, 2015 11:08:22 GMT -5
I have been very out spoken regarding the fisher plan, perhaps more than I should. The reason is that I am very passionate on the matter.They are my favorite furbearer. I have seen some very intelligent comments here from people like PapaBear Traps 82,Jim Severing, and others. I must state that in spite of my anger and frustration with DEC these biologists have worked very hard on this plan. They do not deserve to be abused.They are under great pressure from both we as trappers as well as the bureaucrats and politicians from above. I do get very frustrated with some of their thinking, but I also get very frustrated with friends that think differently than me about politics. They still are my friends and I must respect their point of view.
Along a different vein the JTI is planning to meet this weekend. Hopefully we can formulate a strong, but respectful set of comments showing our opposition and why. NYSTA does favor some portions of the plan. I would like to see an alternate set of proposals acceptable to both DEC and the trappers. We must get it right.
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Post by E.Reynolds on Feb 24, 2015 13:58:51 GMT -5
HEY LOOK over there.....A FISHER !!!!! St. Lawrence County lawmakers ask state to intervene on behalf of 30 Colton hunting camps that may have to be removed Tuesday, February 24, 2015 - 11:39 am CANTON -- County lawmakers are asking state officials to intervene on behalf of 30 camps on the Long Pond easement in Colton that may have to be removed. The St. Lawrence County Board of Legislators Finance Committee unanimously passed a resolution on Monday saying Gov. Andrew Cuomo and other state officials “take whatever action necessary” to settle negotiations between Danzer Forestland and the state Department of Environmental Conservation. The New York State Conservation Council (NYSCC), which is advocating on behalf of the camps’ owners, says they believe there are four reasons for the discussions between the German-owned Danzer and the DEC. The letter says the DEC wants Danzer to give up subdivision rights. Now, they can divide the 20,000 acres into six parcels. Second, the DEC wants Danzer to get green forestry certification. The NYSCC says this will be costly to the company because they haven’t harvested timber in nine years of owning the land. Their only income from the property is about $15,000 per year in rental fees, according to the letter. “During the nine years they have owned the property they have not conducted a timber harvest and as we understand it, they do not intend to harvest for another 10 years. Danzer is a refreshing change that the DEC should be supporting and applauding,” the letter says. “If New York is really open for business the current stance by the [DEC] pertaining to the negotiations certainly doesn’t reflect that.” In addition to that, the NYSCC believes the DEC’s insistence on re-writing the easement agreement and the inability to agree on the value of the camps and the acreage. County lawmakers say in their resolution that they support the camps, some of which were built in the 1940s, remaining on the property because they “are beneficial to regional economies and encourage families to enjoy the outdoor recreational activities together.” The resolution also notes a state precedent set with the retention of 120 camps on the former Champion lands. northcountrynow.com/news/st-lawrence-county-lawmakers-ask-state-intervene-behalf-30-camps-colton-may-have-be-removed-013
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Feb 24, 2015 15:48:16 GMT -5
Paintedpaw- If I came across as PO'd at the biologists (and I may have been a touch) I can say with honesty it is more at their bosses, bureaucrats and the down state politicians (Who for the most part, even the GOP ones, are liberal demonrats). And this global warming (climate change) BS.... One would think that less snow would be better for stubby legged marten and fisher. A very good trapper on here told me to always find where the pines hit the hardwoods. And if there are stone fences, piles, brush pile, logging roads- even better. They can venture into those areas to hunt and the pines afford them easier traveling because of less snow hitting the ground. I have found his words to be true. Moving in and out of them. They in my observations, traveled more of a straight line in the pines along these edges. Coming out to hit areas to hunt and spending more time there. Just my observations is all- I am no expert by far, I try to think logically. Which may be why this study POs me. The logical reason for a perceived decline in fisher populations in the Dacks is because there is nothing for them to eat! Quick example: A few years back I had a fox den behind the house. 1st year it was used there were 3 pups. They stayed there until fall. The next year there were 6 pups, maybe 7. I had pictures both years of the pair going in with rabbits, squirrels, birds etc.. The year they had 6-7 pups they were gone by mid June. Guess what? There were 0 rabbits around that summer. No woodchucks and less squirrels. So why did the fox leave (by the way, we did not disturb them either of the 2 years)? They had nothing to eat. Maybe that is too simple of a reason for bosses, politicians and bureaucrats to understand. This entire things reeks to high heaven.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Feb 24, 2015 17:21:08 GMT -5
See dick run. See Jane run. See Spot run. dick is chasing Jane. Spot is chasing dick. Jane is chasing Spot. And none of them know why. But that's how the script was written, so gee, what choice do they have but to follow it?
Sometimes this stuff is deliberately designed this way, JUST to elicit the responses, arguments, confusion, frustration and red herring-chasing that is going on here. Want proof? You need look no further than the River Otter Project. Name one thing that was delivered as promised. Oh wait, what was it that was promised? I keep forgetting...
I'm sure that there's some legitimate - well, maybe just legislative - need for our input. But when things are as skewed as they are written in this plan, I'm disinclined to consider it as a good faith attempt to collect "information." Education, degrees, science - that matters. The uneducated bumpkins that some of those in Albany consider us to be: Why bother with what we have to say other than to go through the motions? The "brains" know what's best, not "us." Sure, I'll reply, but only because it will take away the propaganda tool of, "Based on the 'limited' responses that we received, ..." Prepared by Phil N. DaBlank. I put no faith whatsoever in their charade. Of course, that's my opinion. I read somewhere once that I'm entitled to one. So this is the One I'm entitled to, then.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Feb 24, 2015 17:23:54 GMT -5
Well for some reason, I can't use an upper case "D" when spelling "dick" ? Tried twice to correct it. Sorry, maybe just being a - Jane.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 693
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Post by paintedpaw on Feb 24, 2015 19:36:45 GMT -5
Traps 82, I certainly find no fault in your comments, in fact I admire what you have said. If anyone has been out spoken it is I. We are rightly outraged by the plan., and I am most disappointed that our input has been completely ignored. We certainly dealt in good faith, however I do not believe that was the case on the other side. TMC's comments regarding the River Otter project are right on the money. Promises not fulfilled and approaching a twenty year closure. How can we place our trust in an outfit that does business, or the lack of,like that. Every time I've asked about the River Otters there is always, always another excuse.So I understand your frustration. All that I'm saying is that in my passion on this matter as is that of all of us, especially me, we need to treat people with respect and as we would want to be treated. On a side note, today I read through the Bald Eagle Management Plan. That plan is 55 pages long and just as full of useless B.S. as the Fisher Plan.
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Post by kirkwooder on Feb 24, 2015 22:25:43 GMT -5
My father taught me to give respect to those that not only deserve it but also show it in return. This plan does neither.
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Post by jsevering on Feb 25, 2015 8:31:35 GMT -5
Education, degrees, science - that matters. The uneducated bumpkins that some of those in Albany consider us to be: Why bother with what we have to say other than to go through the motions? The "brains" know what's best, not "us." ......................................................................................................................
what would ever give you that idea...
"The team would like to acknowledge Dr. Angela Fuller, Assistant Leader, USGS New York Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit at Cornell University for her collaboration with fisher surveys in Central/Western New York and comments on portions of this plan."
no mention of dec working with jti or any trapper volunteer help in supplying bait of general site locations for there camera and brush traps... here's what we get...
"First and foremost, fishers are highly valued by trappers as a furbearing species and harvest must be carefully managed to ensure sustainable populations. In the absence of such harvest pressure,the need for careful monitoring and management would be greatly reduced."
then you get...
"Secondly, fisher populations have increased rather dramatically in some parts of the State, and observations of this species are now being reported with great frequency by trappers, hunters, trail camera users, other outdoor enthusiasts,and the public at large."
personally it seems we only ever get recognized as the greedy bad guys in these things, I think were just in the way of there never ending camera and genetic brush studies and continuing funding, for the fill in the map cause...
they should remember... when things become unnaturally over common to people, they are just that.. just plain old common, with a new set of "enhanced" problems... jim
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Post by redknot on Feb 25, 2015 8:45:31 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity, are there any parts of the Draft Fisher Plan people like? I have some issues with portions of the Plan, but there are other portions I am in agreement with...Anyone else?
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Post by jsevering on Feb 25, 2015 9:24:02 GMT -5
the parts i like and there are some in there, but they seem to be adversely clouded by what recent history shows as the definition between management and "enhancement" in actuality, actually is! ... would like an explanation on why all the grey areas... its an open ended plan as written, in reality, in my eye, a report or request for funding, which im not against, if i knew the true meaning as presented, between management and enhancement and not what actual on the ground recent history has shown it to be..... jim
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Feb 25, 2015 9:37:27 GMT -5
Did they explain WHY the fisher pop. is exploding in other areas? I did see where they said they were coming from PA. But what about the rest of the areas? Granted, again the red in my eyes may have caused me to miss it...
Bottom line IMO: This does not end well for trappers- As I said before: Tags will be issued lottery style for fisher.. Then otter and cats. Carcasses will have to be turned in.. They will finger print you and take you picture too (Ok, far fetched but does anybody doubt what NYS is capable of trying to do? Read the SAFE Act). Probably $10-$20 per lottery drawing, per animal (and you can "earn points" like DMPs) and then another $10-$20 if you get a tag. NYS looks at any type of LEO organization as a potential cash cow. "You want more funding? Show us the cash baby"
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