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Post by papabear on May 6, 2013 21:03:43 GMT -5
Dear Friends, TMAD + MBS // Trimethylammonium decanoate and Methylbutyl sulphide makes a highly effective coyote attractant. Regards
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Post by oldtimer on May 6, 2013 22:03:08 GMT -5
aka sfe?
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Post by papabear on May 7, 2013 7:36:46 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Oldtimer, SFE (synthetic fermented egg) would for the most part be considered a chemically produced " fatty acid " , but your headed in the right direction. Regard
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Post by oldtimer on May 7, 2013 19:24:47 GMT -5
just a guess Im not a chemist but no only enough to be dangers to myself and anyone close.lol.
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Post by brushwolf64 on May 7, 2013 20:16:15 GMT -5
Sulfides I was thinking rotten eggs. You have me curious. I looked up tmad and all I could find was that it was attractive to coyotes and caused a licking response. I didn't find if it was a natural or manmade chemical. waiting for another clue to crack this code.
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Post by fuzztrapper on May 7, 2013 21:18:08 GMT -5
All I can come up with is rotten fish urine + fertilizer
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Post by papabear on May 8, 2013 18:38:05 GMT -5
Dear Friends, W-U lure, a.k.a., Trimethylammoniun decanoate is patented. A bunch of searching and a ton of reading will reveal the chemical components and near proportions of each. Further reading and understanding of the TMAD's and MBS's chemicals, makeup and intended purpose for each chemical, will yield / identify the semiochemicals, short chain fatty acids, volital sulfides, aldehydes, phenols, and keytones required to concoct some formulas using readily available, natural and synthetic ingredients to compound an effective lure that should achieve a high degree of reliable results. Regards
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Post by brushwolf64 on May 8, 2013 19:44:47 GMT -5
That's some code!!! Luckily we don't need to crack it we have you.
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Post by lureinthemin on Sept 20, 2013 4:03:18 GMT -5
TMAD Patent ,,,I Believe Has Run Out,,,Run it's 14 years Protection.... I think...One Rodent Company bought the Rights ..to Make a Rat& Mouse Attractant for poisoning the Rodents ,,they use it for Attraction....JMSO
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Post by lureinthemin on Jan 2, 2015 5:16:38 GMT -5
As a Note here ,,, Dear Mr. papabear , TMAD ,,, is NOT that Difficult to Formulate , with of Course the Proper Elements !!!
Mr. Major Boddicker mentioned that in His Note To Me . Thank You Sir !!!
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Post by lureinthemin on Jul 11, 2015 16:46:29 GMT -5
Also as a Note here (IMEO),,, Methyl Butyl Sulphide(MBS) ,,, is Extreme to Handle and is Skull and Crossbones and is Extreme Expensive for 25Gr....!!!About like Drain Cleaner garbage in (DANGERS) .... WHY?? On Earth would the USDA/APHIS Even Consider SUCH Material in the 1970's and 1980's ?? I Dunno ?? ...(ONLY Notion I can come Up with is FOR (Poisoning COYOTES)) through the Use of M44's and Getter Guns ...To get the (Coyote To Bite , Grab and Chew and Open His/Her Mouth and This Substance to Be Thrown/Injection into there Mouth...then they go a Short Distance and (Die)!!! Of course TMAD (Stinks) and is (Man Made Chemicals) and I believe in itself Is Not (POISON) ....BUT (MBS) IS (POISON)...!!!
I Believe Natural Products can be / are Just as Effective (in Coyote Attraction) than Going to this Length of (Toxicity) and Handling !!!
YES , I Agree Mr. papabear , W-U LURE = Western University Lure = Was Determined to be Highly Attractive to Coyotes (TOP OF THE LIST IN FACT) ...But when they Mixed the Stuff Up they HAD TO HAVE THE HOOD DOWN REAL GOOD ON FULL THROTTLE !!! They had a Difficult Time Dealing with The (Stink) Chemicals !!!
Natural Products IMEO can Be made to Highly Attract (Coyotes) without ALL the Toxicity and Breathing Dangers !!!
Avoid the Necessity of Wearing Rubber Gloves FOR PROTECTION !!!
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Post by lureinthemin on Jul 11, 2015 17:00:34 GMT -5
Dear Mr. oldtimer , FYI....(SFE) = Trimetylamine .... YES...You are heading in the right Direction ....For Sure !!!
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Post by papabear on Jul 13, 2015 21:45:58 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Lureinthemin, The chemical compounds contained within TMAD and MBS are the same or nearly the same compounds found in natural materials. I believe the basis and intent for the W-U Lure was to produce a consistent and reproducible product with highly attractant qualities that contains the same properties as natural materials without the variables and possible inconsistencies inherent with using natural materials. I will be sharing a gland lure formula that has a lot of similarities to TMAD's chemical properties and is definitely safer to compound. Stay Tuned. Regards
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 14:11:31 GMT -5
Does anyone know if O'groman carries a lure that uses the W-U formula?
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Post by lureinthemin on Jul 16, 2015 0:22:45 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Lureinthemin, The chemical compounds contained within TMAD and MBS are the same or nearly the same compounds found in natural materials. I believe the basis and intent for the W-U Lure was to produce a consistent and reproducible product with highly attractant qualities that contains the same properties as natural materials without the variables and possible inconsistencies inherent with using natural materials. I will be sharing a gland lure formula that has a lot of similarities to TMAD's chemical properties and is definitely safer to compound. Stay Tuned. Regards HELLO Mr. papabear , I Do Agree That TMAD and MBS , (Do have Natural Components /Properties Sir , they are Formed in a (Natural) STATE BY (SYNTHETIC SYNTHESIS INTO HIGHLY CONCENTRATED COMPOUNDS) , By Various Processes (As You Know) ... Absolutely ,,, iii ,(STINKING FISH and SWEATY GOATS) = TMAD (ODORS) then the MBS ,,,has a Strong Cheesy / Rotten Egg Odors in Relation (More on The Cheesy) I believe) . (POWERFUL STUFF) There ( IN PURE FORM ) ... DAM* . FURTHER I AGREE THAT THERE (GOAL) WAS TO EASILY PRODUCE A MIXTURE (ON THE SPOT) RATHER THAN WAIT FOR MONTHS AND MONTHS ... TO PUT TOGETHER...BUT ALSO I KNOW ...EVEN THEY FOUND THAT THE (CHEMICAL STENCH WAS TO UNBEARABLE TO "FORMULATE" AND AT SOME POINT , DECIDED TO EXIT STAGE RIGHT (QUICKLY)!!! I have (Smelled ALL Components) (AND HAVE READ THE WRIT) ,,, and in There "Synthetic "FORMULATION" ....DAM* ...It WILL Knock The Horse Hair (Stiff Hair) Right OUT OF YOUR NOSTRILS, (To The World BEYOND) AND IT IS NOT ADVISABLE Especially By Me ,,, IMHO ,,, (To Do ANY SMELLING OF THEM Compounds) IN THERE (CONCENTRATED SYNTHETIC FORM) NO NO NO ,,,, Leave THE SMELLING TO THE Critters AND THE 4 WINDS ) and DROP THAT HOOD DOWN AND TURN IT ON Hi x 9 x 9 x 9) ,,,( PLEASE DON'T SMELL THOSE VAPORS )...... Quill Skunk Essence (Ahhh What A Joy To Smell) BUT Them (3) Materials , They Can KEEP THAT DANG JUNK...At Least For Humans to Smell !!! Lord Heavens !!! EVERYBODY JUST PLEASE REMEMBER THAT SOME ANIMALS (NOSES) ARE FURTHER FROM THERE (BRAIN) THAN US HUMANS ,,, AND (COYOTES) ARE ONE OF THEM ANIMALS),,, WE HUMANS HAVE OUR (NOSES RIGHT THERE WITHIN FRACTIONS OF AN INCH , COMPARED TO MOST ANIMALS , NOT ALL ,,, JUST MOST !!!...... SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT !!! Dear Mr. papabear , I SURE Would Rather Smell them in there (Natural Form)....(NOT CHEMICAL PURITY FORM) NO WAY , THANK YOU Sir , I'LL PASS .... MY BRAIN IS NOT TO FAR FROM MY NOSE ,,, So in SAY'IN THAT ,,,,I WOULD LIKE TO (KEEP IT IN NORMAL WORKING ORDER) AS MUCH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE FOREVER !!! I Start Smelling THEM Components ....A HUMAN MAY START HAVING SEIZURES / CONVULSIONS OF Some Sort OR LONG TERM Neurological Disorders THAT ARE IRREVOCABLE (NOT CURED)... IMHO , NO I AM NOT A (MEDICAL DOCTOR) , BUT JUST (READ (ALL) MSDS MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEETS (FOR ALL THESE COMPOUNDS) !!! I BELIEVE IN (SAFETY FIRST # 1) !!! WE ALL SHOULD DO THAT , REALLY !!! (NO ANIMAL OR ANIMALS ON EARTH ARE WORTH THE DANGERS OF (PERMANENT BODILY INJURY OR DEATH) ,,, IMHO-O !!! Dear Mr. papabear , BION , THERE IS (1) BEAR BAIT / LURE , THAT IS STILL BEING MADE/SOLD TODAY , THAT FOLLOWS SUIT WITH THE (TMAD/MBS) "FORMULA" DIRECTION !!! 2 oz. Glass Jar = $13.95 = + Shipping !!! (UNBEARABLE NASTY SMELL) , GEEEZE , I CAN (ONLY) TAKE A WHIFF (1) TIME) LINGERS IN THE NOSE (TOO LONG),,,(PLEASE HAND ME A 1OZ. BOTTLE OF QUILL SKUNK ESSENCE (PLEASE) TO ANTIDOTE) THEM ODORS ,,,DAM* ,,, (ACTUALLY IT IS FOR ALL PREDATORS) IMHO !!! THANK YOU !!! Mr. papabear , I Look Forward To Seeing Your (Gland Lure Concoction) , Sounds (GREAT) Thank You For The Opportunity) Sir !!!
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Post by lureinthemin on Jul 16, 2015 1:58:48 GMT -5
Does anyone know if O'groman carries a lure that uses the W-U formula? POSSIBLY A PLUG FOR YOU TO BUY / PURCHASE , HIGH ROLL'IN FOX TRAPP'IN BOOK 1984 ,,, YOU MAY OR MAY NOT FIND Mr. O'GORMAN , THEM FOR BOOSTERS !!! WHAT WAS TALKING ABOUT , I HAVE NO CLUE !!! MAYBE , Mr. papabear OR someone , can Assist You Further !!! (copy rights) Cannot list ... Sorry !!!
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Post by papabear on Jul 16, 2015 21:24:53 GMT -5
Dear Friends, The following is a very BRIIEF synopsis and description of W-U Lure and its components. More in depth and complete information can be found by searching the web.
W-U Lure: a chemical mix of Trimethylammonium Decanoate (TMAD) and Methyl Butyl Sulfide (MBS). It is basically a mixture of acids, sulfides, and trimethylamine. This chemical is a synthetically produced compound that was developed to ensure a uniform and highly effective product with a persistent odor that could be consistently mixed as needed to attract coyotes. The compound by itself has a very persistent, repulsive, and highly unpleasant odor that needs to be heavily diluted into a proper matrix for field use. The basis and intent for the W-U Lure was to produce a readily usable, consistent and reproducible product with highly attractant qualities that contains the same properties as natural materials without the variables, inconsistencies, and time needed to ferment, tincture, compound, and age ingredients that are inherent with using natural materials.
Trimethylamine: is an organic compound - a tertiary ammine that has a strong fishy odor in low concentrations and an ammonia like odor at higher concentrations. It is a product of decomposition of plants and animals. Trimethylamine occurs naturally in the anal sacs of coyotes, red fox and dogs.... it is also used in the production of fertilizers, dyes, rubber, explosives or propellant compounds.
Decanoate: are salts and esters of decanoic acid. A white crystalline carbolic acid with a rancid ( sweaty goat) odor. Occurs as a glyceride of saturated fatty acids in natural nut and seed oils.
Methyl Butyl Sulfide: contains the sulfur containing amino acid, methionine which are found in the marking secretions of red fox. It has a sulfurous odor like that of garlic / onion. It was realized and noted that by combining ethyl butyl sulfide with thrimethyammonium decanoate the compounds attractancy doubled.
Additional components such as volital aldehydes, putrescene, cadaverine, valeric acid, and methyl keytones enhance the W -U lures overall effectiveness.
Regards
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Post by papabear on Jul 17, 2015 22:22:07 GMT -5
Dear Friends, After many hours of researching, reading, a tanker truck amount of coffee, and a paper pad full of notes, comparing the similarities of chemical and natural compounds and their properties lead me to the conclusions I've mentioned in the previous posts of this thread. Also it became obvious to me that the W-U lure was indeed based from and mimicked natural compounds in glandular type lures. In my attempts to work (backwards) from the W-U lures components I originally worked out five different formulas. To my surprise and staying within the theme of the W-U chemical configuration and substituting to natural materials the five formulas are nearly the same. With slight adjustments of various ingredients eventually (5 years and many batches later) I narrowed down to three useable formulas, two of which proved to be somewhere between average and slightly above average and one that I would consider nearly exceptional compared to some well recognized commercial lures of the same general type use and similar ingredient make-up. Field tests by a few friends and myself are yielding promising results and without blowing my own horn will simply state that this concoction will hold its own against any commercial product offered for sale.
Now I will certainly be the first one to admit that de-constructing the W-U lure formula is not the most efficient way to arrive at a lure formula, however my fascination of compounding natural animal attractants sometimes leads me into doing some foolish things. In fact when I first started researching about the W-U lure I was certain it was a very complex compound that would be impossible to duplicate without use of an arms length list of raw materials, I was wrong. As with most things in nature "simple" proves to be, in most cases, best. And such is the case with my interpretation of and the resulting concoction. In the next post I will list the formula, then in subsequent posts I will describe step by step how to prepare the component ingredients and how they relate to the chemicals of the W-U lure.
Regards
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Post by papabear on Jul 18, 2015 15:55:43 GMT -5
Dear Friends, Listed is my interpretation using natural ingredients:
liver & blood concentrated urine enhanced slightly with valerian root tincture ground fermented/rotted down anal glands from red fox or coyote fermented/rotted down and ground skunk glands asafoetida stout tincture from gum ground muskrat glands
Next post I will describe preparation method, but for now compare the ingredients listed to the above posts by Mr. Lureinthemin and myself. You should be able to see where each ingredient compares or shares the same properties as the chemicals listed.
Regards
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Post by papabear on Jul 21, 2015 18:04:57 GMT -5
Dear Friends, As you will soon find out, building this concoction is not an instant gratification project. However if you are patient enough to follow the steps I assure you your efforts will be rewarded with an end product that is as good as anything you can buy.
In a clean jar place a mashed or ground liver from a red fox or coyote. Place in a warm place and allow to rot down to a gooey liquid. Be sure to burp off the gas occasionally and drain any watery liquid that separates out to the bottom during the first few weeks. After about two months or so you will notice that the putrid odor will dissipate to an almost mellow odor. It is ready to use at that point.
Concentrating urine: Take a quantity (I start with a gallon) of good quality urine and fill a glass jug 3/4 full. Put this in a freezer. After freezing pour off the liquid by punching hole through the ice and discard the ice. Add the remaining 1/4 gallon first removed and repeat the freeze - drain off process two more times. You should end up with about a third of urine than what you started with. To a 1/3 gallon of the concentrated urine add a tablespoon of methyl paraben or sodium benzoate(preservative), 1/4 teaspoon of zinc valerate (preservative), 1/2 oz. valerian root tincture (enhancer) and 4 oz. glycerin (antifreeze and binder). The zinc valerate and valerian contains the chemical "valeric acid". Valeric acid is found naturally in fox and coyote urine and anal gland secretions and in small quantities has a very strong doggy smelling odor. NOTE: this concentrated and enhanced urine can also be used like urine at trap sets but only requires use 2-3 drops per location.
Now with the liver rotted down and the urine concentrated we can prepare our first compound. In another clean jar add:... 1/2 - 1 teaspoon of rotted down liver.....2 oz. of red fox or coyote blood.....8 oz. of the enhanced concentrated urine.....mix well, cap and age this mixture for 2-3 months in a warm place out of direct light. Using the small amount of mild smelling rotted liver adds a trace element of putrescene and cadaverine that I believe appeals to a hunger factor. The combined mixture of blood and enhanced concentrated urine contains some of the same characteristics in canine menstrual blood and the intent is to mimic a good passion ingredient.
You will also need to aquire and rot down a quantity of red fox or coyote glands. Personally I prefer to use just the anal glands and grind/chop them fresh before fermenting them as they seem to break down and rot faster. Place the glands in a jar and leave enough head room for expansion, place in a warm place out of direst sunlight. It is my opinion that glands that have not been frozen produces a better odor and end product as I believe freezing kills some of the microbes and bacteria within the gland and somewhat shorts them of their full potential and true odor.
Collect some skunk scent sacs place them in a jar about a 1/3 full and rot them down in a very warm place out of direct sunlight. Most of the sacs I use have some of the essence drawn out of them and a few that are full. Be careful to not leave a whole lot of fat on them or the fat will preserve and not allow them to rot down all the way. A short time after the sacs are placed in the jar you will definitely be aware of the brashness of the odor, however, as they break down the odor will mellow out to an almost sweet smelling with just a light hint of skunk odor. Be sure to wrap the lid with a rag or several layers of cheese cloth to keep out the blow flies. After the sacs are rotted and the overwhelming odor dissipates to a slight hint of sweet skunk odor the material can be ground. This material contains sulfides and disulfides that are similar to the sulfides in canine urine and glandular secretions.
To tincture Asafoetida from gum you first aquire a quantity of the resin or asafetida gum as its called. An 1/8 of a pound or 2 oz. (by weight) of gum/resin mother material will nicely provide you pint of good stout useable tincture. Simply place the gum/resin in a clean pint jar and just cover the material with a solvent such as 100 proof vodka or "everclear" if you have access to it. Let the material soak until it softens and dissolves into the solvent, shaking vigorously for a couple minutes each day will help the process. After a couple weeks or when the gum/resin is mostly dissolved into the solvent and fill the jar to half way with solvent and let set for about a week, shaking a few minutes every day. To complete the tincture fill the jar with glycerin and shake vigorously on a regular basis. Let its odor blend into the solvent for about a month before using. The longer it ages the better it gets. For years Asafoetida has been touted as a passion ingredient for canines. I don't believe it lives up to that claim. However asafetida is mainly a methyl sulfide and has similar properties to that of skunk, weasel, and mink musk. There are also methyl sulfide compounds in coyote and fox urine and it has been documented that the quantity of methyl sulfides increases in strength and odor output during the canine mating season. Used sparingly asafetida is a very good enhancer in lures used to attract canines and members of the weasel family.
The muskrat glands are preserved in either non iodized salt or a 100 proof vodka ground and added to the concoction. Muskrat glands contain methyl keytones and adds a slight sweetness to the lure and to some extent knocks off some of the brash harshness of the sulfides. The hormone, testosterone, contained in the muskrat glands adds a subtle but effective intrigue that improves the canines response to the concoction. I suppose one could use a synthetic keytone musk if muskrat glands are not obtainable but s I've stated my intent was to produce this attractor using natural ingredients.
So there you have it. After the components are compounded, aged and ready simpley combine at the listed amounts or at amounts that suit your fancy. Blend and age for a couple weeks and you will have yourself top shelf homemade canine critter catching concoction that gets better the longer it ages. A smear the size of your first fingernail placed beyond your trap will certainly enhance your chances at catching a fox or coyote. One side note: as hard as I tried to keep this lure canine specific I must mention it is a killer on fisher.
Thanks for your interest and I hope you have a great day
Regards
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Post by 9wire on Jul 23, 2015 18:30:37 GMT -5
Thanks for taking the time Papa Bear...
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Post by lureinthemin on Jan 2, 2016 19:21:08 GMT -5
No no no Not SFE ...lol...(TMAD) as a Compound !!!
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Post by milkie62 on Jan 8, 2016 21:18:58 GMT -5
Papabear....do you ever have time to trap ? Thanks for sharing the info.
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