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Post by minifoxer on Mar 23, 2012 21:16:58 GMT -5
Well trappers, lets hear your opinions on this subject!
Is there such a thing as Coyote Specific locations? Features you look for when your targeting only coyotes? How do these features/locations vary from other K9's like red and Grey fox? Do the coyotes seem to use the terrain differently then a red or greyfox does? If so, how?
How about sets? If setting specifically for coyote, what do you look for in your sets? Blended and subtle? Flashy? Big backing? Small backing?
I know, I know, alot of questions that are going to get alot of different answers, and questions that depend on what area your from. But that's OK...just give me your opinion, and why.
I guess I got to thinking about it....there has to be something to it. Afterall, the term "don't fox trap your coyotes" (which I hear often) implies that if the coyote location, sets, and all the other aspects are different for coyote, your success will shoot up. Not to mention all the ADC work that guys around the country do for specifically for coyotes. They don't get payed to trap fox, bobcat, or anything other then coyote if the ADC job is for coyote, so they use methods that are made for coyotes, not for the other animals, or multi species.
And I'll bet that a few of those guys are going to be reading his post.... Let's shed some light on the subject of methods that can be used to take full advantage of the coyote!
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Post by Itrapny on Mar 24, 2012 4:50:57 GMT -5
This can develop into a great thread.....I don't think you'll ever find a 100% coyote specific location or set because all critters, just like humans, are different. Using just quality coyote urine at a post set doesn't really give you an added benefit of just coyotes as all critters are attracted to urine, including deer, rabbits and porkies. Same goes with lure as I've caught MANY different critters on coyote gland lure and you would think that would be as specfic as it gets...The projection set, if made properly will reduce your other "non-target" catches quite a bit, but it's a low numbers set in my opinion and only a change up. There a start.....
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Post by slyfox74 on Mar 24, 2012 7:21:52 GMT -5
Coyote specific sets are rare for me, because coyote specific terrain is rare. The only situation I can think of that would be considered "Coyote pecific" would be a big field, say 30 or 40 acres, with an island of brush in the center. Even then you'll nab a Red. In that case I go to the buried bait set. That's my "go-to" set for Coyotes
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Post by trappermac on Mar 24, 2012 7:53:55 GMT -5
This can develop into a great thread. Couldn't agree more! Very well thought out question! I agree with the replies already stated. Myself, I target fox even though I trap in an area that has coyotes. Past two years I haven't caught a coyote but have done well on fox. I do see where coyotes have visited my sets. I think (we all speculate) it is because I set tight to the hole. I hope to get fox. So, I think that if you are targeting coyotes a major part of catching coyotes is going to be based upon your setback from the hole. It won't prevent non-target, but it helps. I'm sure if I trapped all season with my method I'd get a few yotes. Zagger I'm sure targets yotes but gets some fox as well. I don't think you can ever eliminate non-target, but you can get closer to the intended target based upon how you set. Looking forward to other opinions, especially Marks.
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Post by minifoxer on Mar 24, 2012 8:44:31 GMT -5
Thanks for your time in helping, gentlemen! I do know that targeting and catching only one target animal is a far far shot and right there with impossible, but there are methods that and techniques that will greatly enhance your success with a certain furbear. trappermacs last sentence before his closing, is exactly what I was thinking, when I developed this thread. And it is those methods that can get you closer to the intended target (coyotes) which I, and others, would like to gain from this thread.
Now with my second post I would like to shed some light on what situation I am in. For the most part, my area is farmland habitat. Fields boarded by woods, and wood lots....lots of crop changes, 2-tracks, and other farmland travel routes that can change and effect the animals movement and ravel patterns. The #1 k9 in my area is the Red Fox. However with coyotes moving in, I need to figure out how the coyotes are using the "Lay of the Land" differently then the foxes to increase my success rate with them.
Looking forward to more posts!
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Post by jsevering on Mar 25, 2012 8:37:14 GMT -5
"don't fox trap your coyotes" ....................................................................................................pretty much refers as i understand it, the difference one will travel or general area covered.. for example a grey will travel/cover a hair less than red and a red travels/covers less than a coyote... so to me anyhow its pretty much a proportional type deal in part that some of the other aspects fall into... jim
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Zagman
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,186
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Post by Zagman on Mar 26, 2012 10:36:25 GMT -5
Where to start?
Mike Spring and Rick Rehac have been to my place a few times.
They told me because I have a coyote mindset and am a coyote trapper, that I am MISSING fox.
Certainly, trap pan tension and distance from the attractor could add to that, but I always looked at it the other way. Fox trap placement will miss many of your coyotes. Hadn't really thought about it the other way that they presented it to me.....
But in the end, they were right.
When I set a trap....I expect a coyote. Fox are unexpected.......and with the price, I am happy to see them. While I am a coyote trapper, really, I am a CANINE trapper. I am never disappointed in seeing a red or grey fox in my sets.
So, to the question.
I think it nearly impossible to dream up a coyote-only location.....heck, I catch whimpy red fox right in the heart of coyote country.
"The coyote sees himself as King. He picks the prime ground. The red fox makes do" Tom Krause.....Dynamite Fox Trapping.
In the end, in OUR state, you need to rig for coyotes even if targeting fox. So, if I tailor a set for coyotes, with coyote equipment and spacing, I am better off (IMO) than targeting and rigging for fox, with fox equipment, and spacing and then hoping to hang onto the occasional coyote.
Ask Von, Mike Spring, Rick and Dale about their area where fox always dominated the catch.....and the coyotes are creeping up.
Ask them what size traps they are using!
MZ
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Mar 26, 2012 11:47:53 GMT -5
In my early years of fox trapping, I noticed countless times (in snow) at a set where fox would veer right over and examine the set, circle it, approach within one last step to hit the trap pan of a textbook crowded trap to the attractor, then turn and leave.
Time after time after time I would check a visited but empty set and say in my head, "just one more step and that fox was mine"
Then I finally smartened up, starting setting all canine traps several inches back from presentation (depends on the specific type of set) and immediately started catching more fox. Now that next-to-last step from before, is the last step that triggers traps now.
If there was one lone adjustment I ever found that made a significant difference in canine catches, it was definitely setting "too far back" from what most traditional lessons taught. A trap too far back will make some hind foot catches on fox... but a trap crowding the hole or post will remain empty when the visitor hangs back and does not fully commit.
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Post by Rick on Mar 26, 2012 16:28:40 GMT -5
Mark, my stance in that argument was more location driven. As in from some of your conversation you seemed to be driving past the fox to get to the coyotes.
I don't fully buy into the pan tension or trap placement thing and likely just kept it going 'cause I seen it was bothering ya. Those were some fun conversations.
Coyotes are still somewhere + or - 10% of my catch. I'm not running the "big iron" most guys are, but like Mark said...I am rigged to hold coyotes. I can think of no "coyote specific" locations on my line. There are places where I fully expect to see coyotes...and places coyotes show up and I have no idea where he came from.
One thing that I've come to believe is this. Dealing with a good fox population and a pretty low coyote population density I've found the coyote to be a pretty slick dude. I have no problem getting a coyote to put his foot on a trap pan. I DO have trouble getting repeat customers. I have caught coyotes in red fox remakes but have very rarely caught coyotes in coyote remakes. Not never...but rarely.
There have been a couple seasons in the past, that for whatever reason...mange, distemper, whatever...I have trapped a very low fox population on my line. In those years I have seen the fox act the very same way. Catch no, or very few doubles, fox scared of remakes.
I firmly belive that I could increase my coyote catch here and if I wanted to catch more coyotes (I do NOT) I would just need to throw in a fresh set. That all seems contrary to what I've heard from other guys...guys working much higher coyote population densities. Like, remakes? Sure...no problem.
So, that would be my advice to you mini. "Coyote specific locations?" No. I know you're a good fox trapper so must have a good eye for location. The coyotes will show in the same spots. Be prepared to hold them and after you catch one punch in a fresh set close to the remake.
Rick
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Post by minifoxer on Mar 26, 2012 17:17:24 GMT -5
Wow!! Truely some very very knowledgable trappers giving their opinions on this subject!! For this, I thank ya's! Mark...that statement you quoted from Tom Krauses book, reallly opened up my eyes. For awhile now, I have always had a mental picture in my head that coyotes where timid in my area....that they where the ones that "made due". Prehaps what made that 'illusion' in my head is because of the fact that they are not many coyotes in my area, and that I rarely catch any. Thanks. Rick, first off, I am no where near a "good Fox trapper!" Secondly, exuse my ignorance....but I have found another question for you When you stated in your post, "There are places where I fully expect to see coyotes...and places coyotes show up and I have no idea where he came from." What dictates when you fully expect a coyote to show up at one of your fox locations? Or why, in some cases, does it suprise you when they do show up? Is that based off of more the population surrounding the general location? (Just want to make sure I am understanding you right!) Thanks alot for all the opinions that where given on this subject. It has certainly helped me!! Bookmarked this one for sure!
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Post by Rick on Mar 26, 2012 17:54:02 GMT -5
Mini, there are parts of my trapline that I consider "coyote country"...bigger farms...hillier...surrounded by much bigger woodlots. I have been catching coyotes from these places for a long time. Can always cut a coyote track. I catch plenty of fox there too but I almost feel like I'm stealing them. It seems the fox only feel safe when they know the big dogs are on the other end of the block.
It's the smaller parcels...little family farms, surrounded by smaller woodlots and residential. Never saw a coyote track, never saw a turd. That's where I catch a coyote and say "where the hell'd you come from?'
Couple lessons to be learned there. The coyote has a much larger territory than the fox. He won't be around every night...that's when I can "steal" those fox.
And...be ready for him. Make sure your traps, chains, and staking methods can handle him and if you haven't seen many in traps you'll be surprised at his power.
Keep in mind...my lifetime coyote catch is like a ten day run on The Zagger Long Line.
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Post by minifoxer on Mar 26, 2012 18:52:01 GMT -5
Thanks Much! You all have helped alot. All of my land traps are cable staked, in case of a coyote. I got alot out of this thread, and I'm real happy I started it here! Truth is, I have only ever seen one coyote pouncing circles in my sets. He was caught with a set I placed purposely for him, after I saw that I had a possum eaten out of another set a couple acres away. Just from seeing the size difference and how differently he fought the trap really made me respect the critter.
Rick....I have a few of those "bigger farms" that you described. I'll be studieng those farms for any sign of coyote movement.
Thanks alot guys..... this coming year, I'll be ready.
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Post by clt on Mar 27, 2012 9:33:46 GMT -5
Zagman,good post,others also... I don't believe there is such a thing as coyote specific locations or sets for that matter.If there are fox,coon,possums,skunks around eventually they will find a coyote set.The only way to have a coyote specific location is if the only animal around is a coyote...
You can do things like others already mentioned to lessen chances of other animals but it would be tough to eliminate them altogether.
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Post by bballou on Mar 28, 2012 11:24:52 GMT -5
minifoxer: I have watched this thread---and you have had some very good trappers give you some very good answers-----BUT ----I am still puzzled----why in Gods green earth would you want a" COYOTE ONLY SET " ? HELLS BELLS ---skunk are going for $30.00 -- Oppossum for $10.00--- Raccoon --- $40.00 ----Red and Gray Fox -- $50.00 to $60.00---and the water animals are out of this world. ---- N.Y.S. HAS SOME OF THE POOREST QUALITY COYOTE'S IN THE STATES. Why would you jest want to catch COYOTES. ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 12:54:04 GMT -5
minifoxer: I have watched this thread---and you have had some very good trappers give you some very good answers-----BUT ----I am still puzzled----why in Gods green earth would you want a" COYOTE ONLY SET " ? HELLS BELLS ---skunk are going for $30.00 -- Oppossum for $10.00--- Raccoon --- $40.00 ----Red and Gray Fox -- $50.00 to $60.00---and the water animals are out of this world. ---- N.Y.S. HAS SOME OF THE POOREST QUALITY COYOTE'S IN THE STATES. Why would you jest want to catch COYOTES. ? For me..... its the thrill of catching one
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Post by ambowpk on Mar 28, 2012 14:25:01 GMT -5
For me..... its the thrill of catching one [/quote] X2. As someone who has never trapped before, I am definetly looking forward to catching a coyote this fall, more so then anything else. And most imporatntly I am hoping both my 5 and 8yr. olds are with me.
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Post by coonduke on Mar 28, 2012 20:44:05 GMT -5
I wish I had the opportunity to spend a few winters in an area of higher coyote populations to have more experience "reading" what they do and how they react. I have a lot to learn about coyotes which a lot of guys would probably be to proud to say.
I have a few opinions on things that some may or may not agree with...and that is fine because we don't know exacty how everyone operates and there might be details that we do or don't do that make a big difference.
First off, backsetting. I have caught a lot reds with traps tight to the hole and it worked great. Through one of the conversations Zagman and I had a few years ago he "challenged" me to back set for fox which might cut back on some coyote misses. I caught reds just the same with the trap back 8 - 10 inches as I did with a tight trap.
As far as missing fox goes, if a guy wants to move his trap every time he sees a "one tracker" they would go nuts. There are just some scenarios where we will miss some. Whether it be the individual, the weather, whatever is happening at that moment in time. Just like fishing, there are times when it is next to impossible to catch and the next day you can do no wrong.
I see no pattern to the "one tracker' foxes...so I try to make my sets to take the majority of fox and coyotes that come to it. I don't think there is much more a trapper can do.
My sets have also evolved to a flatter, more natural pattern with less emphasis on foot guiding. Subconsiously I probably started doing this thinking it would be more effective on coyotes, and found my catch ratios on fox pretty much stayed the same. Whether it helps with coyotes I can't say for sure but it seems to.
After watching some trail cam footage of fox working dirtholes, they all do one thing in common. The stick thier nose down the hole. I really think that by doing so makes them the most vunerable to being caught. I started making my dirtholes the SIZE and SHAPE of a fox nose, and I really feel this does more to guide them over the trap than foot guides do. Many will probably disagree with this but they say different strokes for different folks.
In my low coyote populations, the key to catching more coyotes is simple. Find more family groups! There is a lot of territory not occupied by coyotes and due to low numbers setting for dispersal is very low percentage. If our coyote season came in a few weeks before fox, I could locate more family groups over a much, much larger area and target coyotes until fox season opened. But since they open together...why the heck would I want to target coyotes? Fox are worth as much and so much easier to put up...and I can catch more with less miles driven.
For me, a coyote specific set is when I set up an area where I know (or suspect from past experience in that area) there is a family group.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 20:59:47 GMT -5
After watching some trail cam footage of fox working dirtholes, they all do one thing in common. The stick thier nose down the hole. That is a great observation right there. Have some footage myself, and all do just that.
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Post by minifoxer on Mar 28, 2012 21:10:16 GMT -5
Thanks a ton folks!
bballou: LOL...sure doesn't seem very smart money wise, does it? First, the Coyote is not what I only target, nor do I want it to be. Chasing after some coyotes in my area poses a great challenge. And I have found, that I learn the most if I challenge myself. I really would like to expand my knowledge, in different area's of the trapping world. And besides that....to change things up. Changing things up, keeps me going through the season.
coonduke: Thanks for that post!! Here's a a question that really shows my amature skills! Just how do you go about finding the family groups of the coyotes? Seems to me that it would be alot of wasted time scouting on foot? Is there an easier method? But then again....maybe targeting coyotes in my area is a waste of time.....
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Post by coonduke on Mar 28, 2012 21:18:22 GMT -5
Talk to farmers, people that spend time in the outdoors, etc. Sometimes you can get lucky by spotlighting. I have no experience with it but some guys use calls or sirens to get them to howl.
Once you got some tips go look for sign.
I bet you knew that answer before I typed it but was hoping for something better. And someone on here may very well chime in with a better answer.
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Post by Itrapny on Mar 29, 2012 5:29:51 GMT -5
If you're trying to locate coyotes, get yourself a howler and use it just before daylight or right at dusk to try and pinpoint coyotes...they'll always answer back ;D Great observation Todd on fox working a dirt-hole set....may need to make my hole a bit bigger
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Zagman
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,186
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Post by Zagman on Mar 29, 2012 7:23:38 GMT -5
Boy, I hate to disagree with Mr. Ballou.........
While our coyotes are NOT Alberta/Montana pales, IMO, we are FAR from having some of the poorest quality coyotes in the states.
Ever see an Alabama coyote? Indiana? Tenessee? Texas?
Our easterns from NY are usually right up there near the highs for eastern coyotes. Ontario, New Brunswick, usually have the top lotters, but NH, ME, NY, VT coyotes are right there next in line....
There's a million reasons NOT trap NY coyotes.....and most of them are valid. Poor fur quality, again IMO, is not one of them.
But, to Bill's point......all the other fur he mentioned is worth something or worth a lot......so take it all.
Me? I don't want tons of possums or skunks or even coons......but I have a coyote mentality and am seeking as many of them as I can get......
When I tell people I only got two skunks and five possums last year, they generally find that remarkable for a typical canine line.
If you truly ONLY want coyotes, but know you may miss some fox, then crank your tension WAY up to 4-5 pounds.
Otherwise...."Let's face it. The foothold trap is non-selective. You put a paw in it and it goes bang" Tom Krause Dynamite Fox Trapping.
MZ
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Post by frankd on Mar 29, 2012 13:31:57 GMT -5
Why trap big game canine's Yote trappers are like Superhero's.The Hot chicks dig them ! Also a good tax write off. LOL
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Post by minifoxer on Mar 29, 2012 15:30:31 GMT -5
This thread sure has benefitted me, and I hope others as well!! A thanks goes out to all that dropped their opinions in! Sure do appreciate it.
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Post by bballou on Mar 30, 2012 7:07:37 GMT -5
MARK I WILL BOW TO YOUR CORRECTION ----ITS MY FAULT--- I DID NOT SAY WHAT I WAS THINKING -----I have seen coyotes from all over the USA including Alaska---IMO most western state coyotes have a beautiful fur----(I think they call them Puff Balls.) The white bellys and consistant colors in the back. What I was thinking was the advantage many -many Southern states have over us in having a live market.(for a poor coyote) Dollars value instead of fur.-----As far as the fur goes on the trap line---I usually trap every thing---and very happy to get it-----because what I make on the trap line is a very large part of of my income----Over the years the coyotes I have sent to Canada ---have not cleared well----many spend many years in Canada before they are sold for a few dollars----I dont have time for $3.00 coyotes when there are $10.00 to $40.00 skunks -- $12.00 muskrats..--- about every fur we have is less time-consuming than the coyote to put up correctly. ----At one time I had the Coyote or K9 mentality----(nothing wrong with it)---I belive I can relate to what you are saying----but 40 years later I cant afford to have it.---nor do I have the strength to have it. Hope this clears up some things.
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