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Post by hardwoodcharlie on Feb 13, 2016 15:06:49 GMT -5
Well it's been four day since I went in for surgery on my knee,I was assured that it was a very easy procedure just a knee scope is what they call it,they go in behind kneecap And scrape or cut out the old damaged tissue and cartilage and your good as new.....right after surgery the nurse was informing me that the next few days to take it easy, Even though there would be little to no pain it still needed proper time to heal....now with this information I made an Assumption !!..that this was going to be a walk in the park Boy was my assumption wrong!,, So here I sit with ample time to ponder,reminisce ...thinking about this time last year how hard the winter was on the wildlife..it was end of February and I was cutting fire wood. The snow was waiste deep any were you went in the woods,just about every tree I had to make a path with the skidder blade so I could cut it,at any given time you could count a half a dozen deer in sight of the skidder waiting for the chance to browse on the fresh tops.on many different afternoons before calling it a day I would pull a few tops out to the main skid trail For the deer just to give them a break from the deep snow..It was the middle of the week and i spotted a small deer laid out on the edge of the skidd road that did not make it threw the cold night,I stopped beside it and looked around wondering how many others had succumbed to the elimants that are never seen or heard of..you realize just how seriose mother nature is... At the end of the week the people that owned the camp came up,Friday and Saturday I spent both days working on the landing blocking and splitting wood,Saturday after noon One of the owners stopped down to talk before heading back to the citie.chatted on the weather and was happy with my work,also said his brother and him seen were coyotes had killed a deer,got us talking about coyote populations and such,the same old same Old out look on the Coyote..... Monday I went back in the woods and when I got to the spot the little deer died,the coyotes had dragged it out and down the skid road,they definnatly had worked it over hair was scattered thirty to foury ft down the trail...then it hit me this was the deer the land owners had found,For what ever reason it never crossed my mind when they told me of finding the deer that the Yotes killed..that it was the same one that died on its own..perhaps because just about every time you talk to a hunter they all have stories of Yotes killing off the deer That it just becomes part of every storie.. So this has me asking how many times when sportsmen and women are out and about and find signs of animals feeding on deer turkey ect... They Assume thats what killed it?? ASSUMPTIONS right or wrong we all make them..
I still believe that the poor old coyote is guilty until proven innocent ...that's just my assumption lol Have a good weekend everyone Charlie
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Post by newfox1 on Feb 13, 2016 16:28:47 GMT -5
sure would be a nice winter to cut logs this year Charlie,good winter for the deer too,not to much snow.
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Post by squash on Feb 13, 2016 16:50:23 GMT -5
And why wouldn't hunters have stories about coyotes killing deer ? They do. I don't assume that every deer I find dead is due to coyote predation, however they do take many deer and not just fawns. If you find a deer carcass that has been chewed on by predators, the best way to tell if it died of other means other than malnutrition. Is to break open the rear leg bone and look at the color of the bone marrow. If it's red and translucent, it died of malnutrition, if it's white and opaque it most likely died of predation or perhaps auto collision, gunshot, arrow ,etc..
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Post by surveyor on Feb 13, 2016 17:47:59 GMT -5
Coyotes slaughter deer... fawns (at least 60% of them, some studies have shown as many as 90%) and adult both injured and healthy. I have hunted and lived on the same patch of farmland for over 50 years. I observe wildlife 365 days a year. I have been here when there were no coyotes and when there were multiple packs that you could hear every night! I have personally seen the evidence of dozens of coyote kills...I even witnessed four coyotes surround, attack and steal a bear cub from it's mother. When I hear someone say that coyotes are just a necessary part of the food chain, I just shake my head. They weren't necessary 50 years ago and they aren't necessary now! I have been told that because of predators "it sucks to be a rabbit"... in my neck of the woods "it sucks to be a predator". The next coyote I shoot will be number 100...then I will start working on the next 100! Foxes I have lost count of. Some say I don't shoot enough to make a difference and that I am only increasing the population... again I shake my head! In one field where I hunt last week I saw 15 deer and 9 long beards! In May there will be plenty of hens around to join them.
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Post by peltseeker on Feb 13, 2016 18:43:55 GMT -5
Wow 90 % kill rate on fawns .... How ever is our deer population going to survive ? Lmfao i would love to know where you get your information on this predation scenario.... If it were true our deer herd would be listed as threatened on the list of endangered species... Coyote kill to eat and kill only what they can find and catch ... Fawns are on their dinner list but by no means the top of the list ...
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Post by trappermac on Feb 13, 2016 18:53:18 GMT -5
Coyotes slaughter deer... fawns (at least 60% of them, some studies have shown as many as 90%) and adult both injured and healthy. when someone cites studies on the internet my response is.....show me the study. Only hearsay without proof. My assumption is...since many high numbers coyote trappers/hunters take high numbers each year in the same areas....is every time you kill a yote, two show up for the funeral.
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Post by herm on Feb 13, 2016 19:18:11 GMT -5
I would rather have coyotes around than deer.
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Post by hardwoodcharlie on Feb 13, 2016 19:21:46 GMT -5
Newfox1 your right it would have been a great year for the woods,and the deer and other critters definnatly deserved this winter after last year..
Squash..by no means was I saying Yotes don't kill deer,I'm talking about making negative assumptions .....my question was how manny people say the seen where coyotes KILLED a deer just because there were signs of them at or around a carcass?? And the tip on the bone marrow I did not know thanks for sharing.
Surveyor....I have to say that 60-90% of all fawns seems a little extreme....with numbers like that it wouldn't take long for our deer herd to dwindle to nota... From the amount of car kills and winter kills I see I think the Yotes need to step up their game,us hunters sure are not getting it done!! And as far as the coyotes slaughtering the deer they are just hunting and consuming any avalibe whitetail they can,us humans are the ones that slaughter them I have never seen a coyote take the choice cuts and stuff the rest in garbage bags and throw in a ditch by a culvert. I to have witnessed deer turkey and even Yote all in the same meadow ...many many times... But maybe my assumptions are all wrong..... Charlie
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Post by hardwoodcharlie on Feb 13, 2016 19:36:15 GMT -5
I would rather have coyotes around than deer. Me to herm never got more than five bucks for deer hide.lol
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Post by surveyor on Feb 13, 2016 19:59:46 GMT -5
Dr. John C. Kilgo[4]at the U.S. Forest Service at the Savannah River Site in South Carolina conducted one of the largest studies concerning the affects of coyotes on whitetail deer. Sixty fawns were collared and observed. Within the first 6 weeks 73% (44) of the fawns died. Approximately 80% (35) were killed by coyotes, 13% (6) were killed by bobcat, and 7% (3) by unknown causes.
In yet another study, Sarah Saalfeld[7], a student of Auburn University, under the direction of Dr. Stephen Dithckoff, found coyotes impacted deer in an urban environment the same as in the wild, contradictory to the expectation that cars would be the highest cause of mortality. Coyotes killed 67% of the fawns in an urban environment just as in rural environments.
According to Angela’s thesis, “Of the 14 fawns, only three survived to 6 months of age. Six of seven predation events were attributed to coyotes based on examination of bite patterns and remains left at the site.” The study estimated the probability of fawn mortality at Fort Rucker due to coyotes to be 65 percent.
There are all kinds of studies that confirm what what I said. The three above I found in five minutes.
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Post by surveyor on Feb 13, 2016 20:30:45 GMT -5
Here is another one...
Coyotes have been linked to the decline of white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) (Cook et al. 1971, Hamlin and Schweitzer 1979, Hamlin et al. 1984), mule deer (O. hemionus) (Truett 1979), and pronghorn (Antilocapra americana) (Neff et al. 1985) through predation on fawns. Coyotes were responsible for 86% of annual white-tailed deer fawn mortality in Oklahoma (Garner et al. 1978).
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Post by surveyor on Feb 13, 2016 20:43:00 GMT -5
One more I found re: Northeast Considerations Unlike the small, 20- to 25-pound coyotes of the Southwest, the Northeast is home to a much larger subspecies. Weighing up to 55 pounds, the Eastern coyote of the Adirondacks is believed to be a distant coyote-timber wolf crossbreed. Populations of these coyotes have been shown to prey heavily on deer in certain situations. In a landmark study that spanned 12 years, Maine biologists collected teeth and bones from 760 winter coyote-killed deer. The researchers then documented the sex and age of each deer, as well as individual health (based on bone marrow fat content). On startling conclusion was Eastern coyotes do not target just young and sick deer when favorable conditions exist. In fact, researchers learned these coyotes prey nonselectively upon mature bucks and does that are otherwise healthy.
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Post by hardwoodcharlie on Feb 13, 2016 20:55:30 GMT -5
So what is the overall fawn death rate from coyotes...60-90% on fawn mortality isn't telling how many are dying over all from coyotes.... just the percent of the dead ones from coyote???so every 100 fawns that die 60-90 are suspected from coyote that's not to far to fetched ...but to say 60-90% of fawns population are killed by coyotes is hog wash. There is a huge variable in you're statement !!
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Post by hardwoodcharlie on Feb 13, 2016 20:57:15 GMT -5
..
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Post by squash on Feb 13, 2016 21:21:06 GMT -5
I would rather have coyotes around than deer. Me to herm never got more than five bucks for deer hide.lol You guys have got to be kidding ? And I never found a recipe that would make coyote loin edable.
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Post by hardwoodcharlie on Feb 13, 2016 22:04:04 GMT -5
Me to herm never got more than five bucks for deer hide.lol You guys have got to be kidding ? And I never found a recipe that would make coyote loin edable. Squash I have ate some old deer that we're so tough you couldn't cut the gravie with a hatchet.. All kidding aside I enjoy deer hunting as much as the next guy,but if I don't tag a deer.....then I don't tag a deer nothing more nothing less....never been much for excuses. Maybe someone will chime in with a recipe for stink dog back straps ..if they do you will have to let me know how it turns out ..lol
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Post by surveyor on Feb 13, 2016 22:47:35 GMT -5
Another study...William S. Bartush* and James C. Lewis†Oklahoma Cooperative Wildlife Research Unit, Oklahoma State University, Stillwater, Oklahoma 74074 Forty-eight fawns of white-tail deer (Odocoileus virginianus) were captured, radio-tagged, and released in the Wichita Mountains of Oklahoma to study their ecology and causes of death. Ninety percent of the fawns died within 90 days postcapture. Predation, primarily by coyotes (Canis latrans), was involved in 88% of the losses.
OK...concluding from the above: 48 fawns times 90% = 43.2 fawns died *** 88% of them killed by coyotes or 43.2 x 88% = 38 fawns *** 38 divided by 48 = 79.2% of all of the fawns died "primarily by coyotes". Look... I said there were studies out there with 60 to 90% mortality rates caused by coyotes. I was criticized as being someone who couldn't back up what they were saying. I have tried to simply pass along what I have researched and read! Believe what you want to believe!
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Post by peltseeker on Feb 14, 2016 3:17:05 GMT -5
The coyotes were attracted to the collars.... We need more deer so we can have more car deer accidents so we can pay more in insurance. Lets see an actual set of numbers.. Estimated deer population in ny alone is close to 1 million animals or so... of that sixty some percent are does and a mature doe can have as many as two healthy fawns per year average..do the math ... Coyote population state wide is just greater than 100'000 hmmm guess coyotes got Alot of eating to do ....
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Post by trappermac on Feb 14, 2016 5:49:38 GMT -5
Plenty of studies around...heres one done here in NY....backs up some of Charlie's thoughts on assumptions...... Researchers from the SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry examined animal carcasses visited by radio-collared coyotes during the winter and summer of 2008-09. During the winter, only 8% of adult deer had been killed conclusively by coyotes. The remaining 92% were scavenged by coyotes after being killed by vehicles and other injuries. The adult deer that were killed by coyotes had severe preexisting injuries and were likely to die from other causes in the absence of coyote predation. In the summer, about 55% of the carcasses visited by radio-collared coyotes were fawns, 24% were woodchucks, 18% were turkeys, and 4% were goose and cottontail. Not all radio-collared coyotes killed fawns and kill rates of fawns varied widely among individual coyotes. Fawns up to about 20 days old were vulnerable to coyote predation, but predation dropped sharply after mid-June when fawns were about 1-2 months old. Here is a more recent article about a study in NY...... www.syracuse.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2015/01/suny_esf_prof_coyotes_are_everywhere_in_nys_but_overall_impact_on_deer_is_minima.html
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Post by squash on Feb 14, 2016 8:39:16 GMT -5
The coyotes were attracted to the collars.... We need more deer so we can have more car deer accidents so we can pay more in insurance. Lets see an actual set of numbers.. Estimated deer population in ny alone is close to 1 million animals or so... of that sixty some percent are does and a mature doe can have as many as two healthy fawns per year average..do the math ... Coyote population state wide is just greater than 100'000 hmmm guess coyotes got Alot of eating to do .... Pelt seeker, do you work in the insurance industry ? Your math is flawed because the average fawn recruitment rate is well below 2, and parts of northern NY it's below 1. You can't generalize about deer populations in the whole state. If you hunt the Finger Lakes Region, you probably think there's too many deer, However, most of the Northern Zone habitats could support many more deer, and those of us that hunt there would welcome that. Deer and coyotes have coexisted in NY for decades,But coyotes are still an invasive species in NY. Here on Tug Hill, Throw in an old fashion hard winter like last year and you see what happened to our deer herd here. With coyote, black bear and bobcat predation of fawns, helping to create low fawn recruitment rates. Don't expect deer herds on Tug Hill or the ADK's to recover any time soon. Regardless what DEC harvest numbers say, a better indicator is the amount of deer local butcher shops cut this past season. Many were down 30% - 50%.
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Post by bobsamuelson on Feb 14, 2016 11:30:49 GMT -5
Surveyor, you shot 100 coyotes. Did you sell the pelts , or like most who hunt coyotes, just count numbers but toss the dead coyotes into the hedgerow! Recently, there was a large predator hunt in WNY. I don't have numbers on male/female coyotes, but about 70 were checked in. However, there were about 210 fox brought in. It was an almost 50/50 split and thre was someone who acquired most of those fox. Upon skinning, 60+% of the females were pregnant! Most had 6+ pups, with some having 8. This falls into the Conservation Law description of wanton waste! If one were to run the numbers, that's around 500 fox pups that won't be born! If I ask most predator hunters what they do with the fox and coyotes, they just toss them! Again, wanton waste! Then again, most predator hunters have no idea how to process the animal for a sellable pelt! I will take them, if salvageable, but I won't pay for them unless the hunter has taken the time to preserve the value of the fur. Unfortunately, two things happen that can ruin a good pelt. 1) Shooting with a large caliber bullet! Blowing the animal in half may look cool, but does nothing to preserve the value of the fur. To me, it also is disrespectful to the animal! 2) Don't gut the animal! If you bring it to me after you gutted if like a deer, you have just taken a good pelt and reduced the value by 1/3 to1/2 of its value, and that's before I start to see up the bullet holes! Ethical hunters should be harvesting sustainable wildlife, but throwing into the hedgerow is just wrong! Now, as breeding starts around January 1st, trapping and predator hunting should not be targeting fox. If one wants to hunt coyotes until the close of the season, when those March coyotes are basically worthless at least have a plan to get the pelts processed for sale!
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Post by surveyor on Feb 14, 2016 11:51:48 GMT -5
squash...Thank you for pointing out that there are differences in deer populations in different locations for different reasons(Duh!...to those who this comes as a new revelation.) I will add that coyotes have different impacts in different areas as well (Duh...once again).Thanks for bringing in the term "fawn recruitment rate". There are a bunch of studies that utilize that measure... to some that measure may be a bit more difficult to understand. Your observances on Tug Hill or ADK's are exactly the same here in the Catskill Mtns where dozens of excellent hunters I know are seeing very few deer. Oh and the insurance industry...and deer! Yes there are many legitamate car deer collisions, however I have heard and it once was recommended to me that rubbing a deer hide in and around auto damage not caused by a deer collision will go a long way in having the damage covered under the terms of comprehensive insurance. I don't fully know the benefits of this fraud, but I assume comprehensive claims are more forgiving and may have lower out-of pocket deductible costs.
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Post by surveyor on Feb 14, 2016 12:19:04 GMT -5
bobsamuelson...When and if targeting fox... I use a .17 HMR...I only take shoulder shots or pass up the shot using Gen 3+ night vision... very, very few pelts are ruined. When coyote hunting... I use a .223... same methods... same results. I give all of my critters to an avid, excellent, gentleman trapper. He is a member of this forum to my knowledge. I email him and call him immediately the morning after taking a critter...he picks them up immediately while out checking other traps. Some of the hides are sold... some of the hides are tanned... some of the tanned hides are raffled off at wounded warrior events with the benefits going to our vets cause. In December of 2014 I did not have anyone to give critters to...I did not predator hunt...I contacted my local ENCON Officer for the name of a trapper who would be interested in my critters. I even sought a trapper to take the hides via this forum and had one contact from the Westerlo area. I am not sure how many predator hunters are worthy of your rant, but as for me you are barking up the wrong tree!
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Post by bobsamuelson on Feb 14, 2016 12:29:36 GMT -5
Wasn't referring to you, just the whole predator hunting community! Know of too many who don't understand the value of the pelts, or want to sell to me at exorbitant prices! Trappers make a lot of money selling furs!
Most predator hunters that contact me use a .233 of a 22/250 but use the wrong loads! When I ask how big the exit hole is, they think one the size of a softball or larger is okay! But, it has been my experience with most predator hunters, unless they shoot something unusual, it gets tossed into the hedgerow!
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Post by hardwoodcharlie on Feb 14, 2016 13:08:32 GMT -5
squash...Thank you for pointing out that there are differences in deer populations in different locations for different reasons(Duh!...to those who this comes as a new revelation.) I will add that coyotes have different impacts in different areas as well (Duh...once again).Thanks for bringing in the term "fawn recruitment rate". There are a bunch of studies that utilize that measure... to some that measure may be a bit more difficult to understand. Your observances on Tug Hill or ADK's are exactly the same here in the Catskill Mtns where dozens of excellent hunters I know are seeing very few deer. Oh and the insurance industry...and deer! Yes there are many legitamate car deer collisions, however I have heard and it once was recommended to me that rubbing a deer hide in and around auto damage not caused by a deer collision will go a long way in having the damage covered under the terms of comprehensive insurance. I don't fully know the benefits of this fraud, but I assume comprehensive claims are more forgiving and may have lower out-of pocket deductible costs. Surveyor...In you're first post you Stated that 60-90% of fawns were killed by coyotes...the difference between that and 60-90% of mortality due to coyote is HUGE!! In agriculture areas fawn mortality is higher than non ag areas,this is due to fawning and 1st cutting hay season run hand in hand...many many fawns are run threw haybines every year due to the fact that does prefer to fawn out in open high grass fields ....now how many times do you think a coyote is going to let a bleating fawn with its legs mowed off Go un noticed?? Just about every farmer has witnessed coyotes hunting their windrows for mice or what not while they were still working in the field...so if they come across a dead or disabled fawn and grab it and are seen running across the hay field with a fawn dangling from his mouth..wa la Jo Bloe driving by just witnessed a coyote Killing the fawn... Piss poor Assumptions are instantly made!!! That's all this thread was intended for .ASSUMPTIONS.. Deer hunters spend thousands of dollars to hunt deer and if they cant seal the deal he is looking for reasons why it didn't happen,if they hear coyotes or see tracks they instantly ASSUME that was the cause of their short Cummings...
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