tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on May 26, 2015 15:14:45 GMT -5
Wow... today I was at a local auto repair facility; no names so that their identity is protected. I was just waiting on the inspection when in walks this man in casual attire with a briefcase and a business card. When the counter staff had a chance to ask how they could help him, he identified himself and said that he was with NYSDEC and that he wanted to review all of their records since last December, when the new regulations controlling catalytic converters went into effect.
"What records do you mean? And 'DEC,' not 'DMV'?" the manager asked. "Oh yes, DEC. The law states that you must ----" and he went on with a lot of mumbo jumbo that I won't go in to here, but I'm sure some of you are already familiar.
Bottom line is, "someone" filed a complaint with the DEC - not the DMV - about how a transaction went. The manager was very familiar with the case, and pointed out to the DECon agent that it was a dealer, not just a regular customer off the street. Seems that the "dealer" had a car from auction sent over there to have it checked out, the cat was bad, and the dealer wanted the core charge. The repair shop informed them that was all fine and good BUT that they'd have to pay the core charge and send it to the manufacturer themselves to get the core charge back.
"Oh, is that how it went?", the DECon agent asked. "So you're not in the habit of charging customers the core charge and then getting the core back when you send in the old catalytic converters?" The way he said it was clear to all of us that it was stated in the form of an accusation, not a question. "I'd like to see all your records dating back to January, please. Where are they?"
Anyways, that was a lengthy back and forth but my point is, one customer (there were 9 of us in the waiting area) next to me got it started by talking (quite loudly) about how swell it is to live in New Yorkistan. Then another guy started in about their otter and fisher plan! I got into the fray, too, and am sorry that I didn't ask the guy's name or if he frequented this site. It got to the point that at least 7 of us were going round & round about what the !$%*&^% is going on with this state, from the top down... poor little agent-man, he had enough, and asked if there was a private office that they could move their affairs to. I left right about then.
So I ask -- wow! How far IS their reach?!?!?! None of this was sensible. He made it clear that he was there to investigate their BUSINESS DEALINGS and record keeping. I called later and asked the manager how things went, he laughed and said everything was tip-top, and (HERE IT COMES) that the guy had "absolutely no clue what the regulations even were or are! I had to give him a copy of my DEC reg's regarding catalytic converters! He had NO justification for being here, but made it clear, multiple times, that he had the authority to shut me down and keep it that way until an investigation cleared me of wrongdoing. I laughed, I know better, but he was on a mission!"
wow... in a bad way. Wow.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on May 26, 2015 16:55:55 GMT -5
econ law enforcement is the least amount of work NYS ECOs perform. The bulk of their actions involve chemical leaks, chemical spills, site contaminations, outright oil or chemical dumping down drains or waterways, emissions controls in manufacturing plants, waste tire removal or storage, scrap yard - dismantling process protocols, etc.
last I knew, ECOs coming into the force spent their first year or two in the NYC area working on such tasks and nil exposure to hunt-fish-trap issues until they complete that training process downstate.
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Post by pockets on May 26, 2015 18:02:47 GMT -5
My understanding they have power than state police or sheriffs departments do.
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on May 26, 2015 20:13:33 GMT -5
Yes they do- From what I know. They are nothing more than $$$ gathers for NYS.. And sounds like some are getting drunk on power.. FAR TOO COMMON that the accused has to point out the ACTUAL law to them..Guilty until proven innocent in the DEC world.. Not that that is anything new... But I digress, I may be having a conspiracy delusion again.... Soon all hunters/trappers/fishers will have to wear body cameras at all times (even when in route to the field or water) and will be required to turn them over w/o legal counsel, on demand...
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 21:27:32 GMT -5
Well. I have nothing but the upmost respect for Eco's. These men and woman have a job to do. Granted some may have a power complex but the vast majority are here to serve and protect not only our natural resources but my safety and yours while afield. They are understaffed and responsible for a hell of a lot of laws and just environmental ones. Frankly, these Eco's are the first line of defense to defend you and your right to go afield when handling complaints. Especially, complaints from Anti's.
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Post by pockets on May 26, 2015 21:40:29 GMT -5
They are understaffed and responsible for a hell of a lot of laws and just environmental ones Exactly the problem!!!! So many laws they do not know them therefore they should not be harassing people (and that is what it is) if they do not know what they are talking about. I do not envy them at all. That's why there should be wardens as well as environmental officers. Then maybe laws would be interpreted correctly and incidents like above would not happen. This not the first time they have not had a clue what they were talking about and will not be the last. Yes the money is there to create a separate department. Money this state takes in there is plenty just take some politicians and turn them upside down plenty will fall out of their pockets to pay for it. They do not want to spend the money is the problem.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on May 26, 2015 21:42:11 GMT -5
Wow, now that's a thought: "All those engaging in the pursuit of game in this State shall at all times wear body camera(s) approved by said State in order that proof may be offered of the humane dispatch of all game taken within the State..."
Right Austin, I know that the "other duties" are far more numerous than the actual field work we'd tend to think of because we're outdoorsmen; I just had NO idea they could walk into a business and try to nail them for what I witnessed. There was never an issue of compliance with spills, tire storage, scrap, hazardous containment, emissions - NOTHING, other than someone got their panties in a wad because a legitimate business wouldn't play patty-cake and let them double-dip on a SINGLE core-charge issue. Nothing else. And, not multiple allegations, just ONE. And that one was proved, within a 60-second period, to be not only false but literally the act of filing a false report. And the complainant? NOTHING!!!! Nothing done as far as I know. But the honest businessman? As I left, I could almost hear the proctologist's glove >snap!< as the agent slipped it on... Must indeed really be all about WHO you know. "Uncle Gus, dat bad bad bidniz man wuz MEEEN to me!!! Sic 'im, Uncle Gus, sic 'im!!!"
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on May 26, 2015 21:58:11 GMT -5
Well. I have nothing but the upmost respect for Eco's. These men and woman have a job to do. Granted some may have a power complex but the vast majority are here to serve and protect not only our natural resources but my safety and yours while afield. They are understaffed and responsible for a hell of a lot of laws and just environmental ones. Frankly, these Eco's are the first line of defense to defend you and your right to go afield when handling complaints. Especially, complaints from Anti's. MF, I don't think you're reading me right. At all. I'm not pointing out the ECO's with whom we're familiar. As far as utmost respect, yes I do have that for them as well. Bottom line is you're not telling me anything I don't already know or don't already agree with. This "agent" was NOT "one of the good guys;" dressed in designer slacks, had a white short-sleeve shirt with a DECon insignia on the pocket, boat shoes... and looked very much like he'd faint if he saw a deer tick. He was NOTHING you'd expect to see in the field. He WAS NOT there to perform ANY of the duties, very important duties at that, that you've rightly mentioned. He was there for the sole purpose of going through the books to make sure that no funny business was going on with FINANCES. Spell that out, "F-I-N-A-N-C-E-S." As traps82 pointed out, not at all unlike NYC cops being made to collar guys selling loosies and sidestepping the State's tobacco tax collection efforts. It was nothing about the things you've pointed out. The ECO's around here??? I'd take a bullet for any one of them. This guy today? I'd look the other way.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 22:21:14 GMT -5
Thanks Tmc. It's easy to lump them into one group if the viewers here don't have any knowledge of how the DEC is setup and since my interactions with the uniformed Eco's have been nothing but exceptional. I felt the need offer an opposing opinion in defense of the Eco's in my area at least.
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Post by mrlongbeard1 on May 26, 2015 23:47:24 GMT -5
that is why the Dec should be split into two agentcyes.Enviromental and wildlife conservation. Just my two cents.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on May 27, 2015 0:44:04 GMT -5
Thanks Tmc. It's easy to lump them into one group if the viewers here don't have any knowledge of how the DEC is setup and since my interactions with the uniformed Eco's have been nothing but exceptional. I felt the need offer an opposing opinion in defense of the Eco's in my area at least. OK, gotcha. You're right. Thank you for clearing that up for me. Honestly, I wish you had been there. I can't possibly do a good enough job explaining what the situation was like. My encounters with real ECO's have - for at least the past 15+ years - been very positive. Excellent, in fact, even though things weren't always resolved entirely to my liking (trespassers, poachers, and the like). These guys are the real deal. But this desk jockey pencil-pusher today (OK, yesterday now) was a real turn-off. EVERYONE had an instant dislike for this guy from the minute he opened his mouth.
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Post by trappermac on May 27, 2015 4:56:40 GMT -5
I’ve been in the metal finishing business for 37 years, four different facilities as a plant/general manager. My business is based upon chemical usage and we are regulated for our water discharge (effluents), air emissions, captive waste treatment operations, transportation and disposal of waste, chemical storage in the facility, etc, etc. Trust me you have no idea of the regulations we’re under and how one mistake can cost the company and/or send someone to jail. In those 37 years I’ve been inspected by the DEC more times than I can count. I’ve never had a bad experience. I’ve never had any DEC official act like the one mentioned in this thread. Always professional and cordial, understanding of normal plant practices (they know you’re not going to be perfect), have received many “suggestions for improvement” but no fines. Yes, they can request all the records they need to see relative to their area of authority. These are not ECO’s, they are DEC personnel who specialize in this area and know what you as a business enterprise are required to do to meet state and federal regulations. My dealings with them in this capacity have been fine. Yeah, we don’t like the new regs that the DEC is proposing. Fisher seasons and bag limits, new deer proposals, etc. But that’s where our focus should be, not on painting with a wide brush to discredit anyone who works for the DEC. The original post describes one bad incident, I could describe dozens of good ones. Now…..just don’t get me started on the EPA.........
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on May 27, 2015 7:15:32 GMT -5
I don't have any problems at all with ECOs in the field... one of which is now high-ranking and whom we each attended each other's weddings. I also met two different ECOs in other areas last season who were both the nicest guys imaginable.
I do have a problem with the decision-making process inside DEC which is far above the enforcement level field officers. As for specific knowledge of trapping regulations? I've met a few officers in the past who admittedly had little to nil knowledge of the regs because in their words each time, "we very seldom see / deal with trappers afield"
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Post by papabear on May 27, 2015 8:27:14 GMT -5
Dear Friends, Over the last few years I've met or know just about all the ECO's around here. The first couple of encounters with the new ECO's is usually the same routine; ask what your up to, check your license, check traps and tags for compliance, ask what your trapping, the usual routine questions.....basically doing their job......they all are pretty smart guys and it doesn't take them long to figure out what side of the law your on.
Like Mr. Austinp, I too have met a couple of ECO's who admitted their lack of knowledge of trapping methods and complete understanding of the related regulations. But these guys are motivated to learn and when offered to show them some things have had 3 so far, take me up on the on the offer. I for one am glad these ECO's are out there.
My only problems with DEC stems from the few within the department who with their cocky know it all, condescending attitudes and self serving agenda's that assume they know what is best for the rest of us. Some of these individuals haven't even lived long enough to know anything! Some even believe what they've read from a book and a diploma qualifies them as an expert! And where the devil is this PRESERVATIONIST MENTALITY coming from, especially with the biologists? I also have a problem when taxpayer money is spent to conduct research and the end result is a half a$$ed, incomplete pile of crap they try and shove down our throats.
Regards
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on May 27, 2015 13:20:32 GMT -5
If a person was paranoid, one would think they are trying to get rid of all hunting/trapping and fishing....
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Post by herm on May 27, 2015 18:47:18 GMT -5
Not the DECs fault that we live in one of the few states that has an emissions test. Most states do a safety inspection and that's it.
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Post by REDNECK on May 31, 2015 9:31:53 GMT -5
I THINK NY IS OVER NYS CRAP ...... sad day its to many chifes not anuff indians i see how dec gets the sort end of the stick but we cant shoot the messangers they get sent out to to do there job but dont know what there job is i blame this on funding if they did not blow it on things that are not broke or new laws that need to be inforced sorry for spelling in hospital and dont have my spell check antis will take over our love for the out doors and all will over populate or get sick we as outdoors men know how it gos all we can do is hope for the beast
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on May 31, 2015 19:41:35 GMT -5
Have you ever noticed that DEC's magazine, the Conservationist, avoids consumptive use articles? How many within DEC have this preservationist mentality? How much influence does the Governor exert over DEC? I for one wish they would return to the old Conservation Department when ECO's were game wardens and enforced fish and game laws; not looking for phosphates in super markets or catching speeders on the Northwat. I wish Forest Rangers were Forest Rangers, not carrying guns with police powers. How many of our young biologists have been brain washed by these off the wall liberal college professors that could not hold a real job?
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Post by papabear on May 31, 2015 22:17:09 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Paintedpaw, From an article I read:
In the United States, $55 billion are spent annually on wildlife watching, nearly 20% by New York State residents. New Yorkers spend $10.6 billion every year on wildlife watching: $6.5 billion out-of-state, $4.1 billion in-state. New York wildlife watching revenues exceed combined in-state fishing and hunting revenues of $3.6 billion. Generating 12% of the state's $33.8 billion in consumer outdoor recreation spending, wildlife watching creates about 36,600 New York jobs, $1.5 billion in wages and salaries, and $336 million in state and local tax revenue. Wildlife watching in New York State is big business. Recognizing both the financial rewards and increased economic potential of wildlife watching tourism, the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) in April of 2013 launched the Watchable Wildlife Program (WWP). Requiring minimal capitol and infrastructure investment, the WWP’s guide and maps simply point the public to existing bird observatories, nature walks, fish-watching and wildlife rehab centers, where the local, regional and state economies all reap those nation-leading $4.1 billion in state revenues. As the East’s first and most celebrated wilderness reserve, tourism in Adirondack Park, including 16 DEC wildlife watching sites, currently attracts 7-10 million visitors who generate $1.2 billion annually.
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Post by peltseeker on Jun 17, 2015 11:34:56 GMT -5
I’ve been in the metal finishing business for 37 years, four different facilities as a plant/general manager. My business is based upon chemical usage and we are regulated for our water discharge (effluents), air emissions, captive waste treatment operations, transportation and disposal of waste, chemical storage in the facility, etc, etc. Trust me you have no idea of the regulations we’re under and how one mistake can cost the company and/or send someone to jail. In those 37 years I’ve been inspected by the DEC more times than I can count. I’ve never had a bad experience. I’ve never had any DEC official act like the one mentioned in this thread. Always professional and cordial, understanding of normal plant practices (they know you’re not going to be perfect), have received many “suggestions for improvement” but no fines. Yes, they can request all the records they need to see relative to their area of authority. These are not ECO’s, they are DEC personnel who specialize in this area and know what you as a business enterprise are required to do to meet state and federal regulations. My dealings with them in this capacity have been fine. Yeah, we don’t like the new regs that the DEC is proposing. Fisher seasons and bag limits, new deer proposals, etc. But that’s where our focus should be, not on painting with a wide brush to discredit anyone who works for the DEC. The original post describes one bad incident, I could describe dozens of good ones. Now…..just don’t get me started on the EPA......... DEC's reach is as long or short as they want it to be ..... it depends and is directly proportionate to the the size of the wallets of the individuals involved ... 100% real story ..... In February i had a sit down meeting with two division heads from DEC in albany about illegal dumping of hazardous materials at my place of employment ... yes i was whistle blowing yes i was disgruntled and yes it was actually happening ... but i had specifics that could not be overlooked or so i thought ...i gave them a smorgasboard of things being dumped in a private landfill that my employer has been doing for years ... i could post the pictures i have but would open myself to lawsuits of which i have not the means or wherewithall to fight ... but the pictures are of barrels labled toxic waste with the generators EPA numbers DEC control numbers name and address clearly posted under big words "hazardous materials" some are filled with powder some are oils ... some are closed with lids some have no lids some are leaking their toxic contents right into the ground .... guess what after a" pat on the back" and a handshake and smile and almost six months later DEC has done nothing !!!!!!!!! not even an ECO to investigate my allegations 100% nothing ...... go figure
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Post by walleyed on Jun 17, 2015 21:15:11 GMT -5
as outdoors men know how it gos all we can do is hope for the beast BEAST Which Beast w
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Post by REDNECK on Jun 17, 2015 22:47:31 GMT -5
Lol welcome back big guy my wife's phone when I get it right still spells it wrong will have to prop read now I know you are back
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Post by walleyed on Jun 18, 2015 4:15:02 GMT -5
Lol welcome back big guy my wife's phone when I get it right still spells it wrong will have to "(PROP)" read now I know you are back You're Doing it again, RED !!!! w
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Post by REDNECK on Jun 18, 2015 22:39:54 GMT -5
Lol I cant win
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