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Post by uncledoug on Apr 18, 2015 15:42:53 GMT -5
Just received this survey in the mail today, anyone else get one? It's 8 questions, first 6 questions are about this past season 2014/2015, what my catch #'s are, how many traps, which area I trapped. Question 7 is about River Otters. #7 What is your impression of river otter populations over the last 5 years? Choices are, Increasing - Decreasing - Stable - Unsure. then what zone, North/south/west/LI.
Question 8 is asking if you observed any river otter, bobcat, fisher, martin or moose in the past year. Just curious what NYSTA thinks of this survey? Maybe I'm a bit concerned about how I fill this out due to another recent survey.
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Post by mikespring on Apr 18, 2015 16:42:02 GMT -5
Yep I got one and right in the trash it went....Like it always has.
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Post by newfox1 on Apr 18, 2015 18:59:03 GMT -5
I also got one doug, question #7 kind of sounds like the infamous question on the last survey.i would like to hear some comments before I fill mine out.
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Post by Itrapny on Apr 19, 2015 7:17:14 GMT -5
The DEC river otter management plan will be coming up in the not so distant future.....
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Post by squash on Apr 19, 2015 7:52:42 GMT -5
I haven't received one, but I now think it's a mistake to fill these surveys out.
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Post by davie6 on Apr 19, 2015 8:52:52 GMT -5
I understand why everyone is quick to jump on this survey after the results from the previous survey. From the aspect of a trapper in NY, I find some doubt creeping into my own head, but as a graduate student student in the natural resources field I understand the need for the survey. As a natural resource manager, you need to understand not only the resource but how people use the resource. I don't mean to start an argument over it but if nobody sends in a survey, they can say no trappers responded so they must not care about the way furbearers are managed. Surveys allow agencies to collect data that is useful without spending a ton of money, because the majority of agencies, either federal or state, are hard strapped for money and can't pay for a field staff to go out and do field work.
SUNY Oneonta has a Lake Management master's program where each student picks a lake, studies it for 2 yrs, and writes a management plan for their lake (the lake association from the lake contacts the college asking to be considered for a student). The first thing every student does is write a survey and send it to every person who lives in the watershed of that lake. Without understanding what it is that people expect from their lake, they can't start to even think about what direction to start their management plan in. I understand this is not a perfect comparison but its meant to give you an example of why surveys are important to managers. The DEC does angler surveys all the time to see how anglers feel about a fishery in response to current management activities.
If anyone wants to talk more, feel free to PM me. I don't want to fill up this thread with unimportant content.
Eric
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Post by chappy on Apr 19, 2015 9:09:47 GMT -5
Eric,
I can agree with you on some points and understand the importance of wise management. The fact is that now after the past 100 years this is not a new science. But the problem is that this management has become so politically diluted that the input is unnecessary. States wildlife departments will not even fight for their own policies. They leave it up to the Trapping organizations to lead these fights. In many states these Departments have abandoned the sportsman!! Who do you trust???
My survey will not go back!!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 11:47:12 GMT -5
I just plan to return a blank survey with a note that says I don't participate in surveys used by agencies I find a threat to trapping.
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Post by pockets on Apr 19, 2015 12:10:30 GMT -5
Eric, Understanding the importance of these surveys is not wasted in trappers or whatever group is targeted in the survey. The problem is that the questions are worded in such a manner that (in this case trappers) trappers do not get to answer how they really feel as it is not an option. They are worded in such a way as to get the answers that THEY want so they can make laws and regs to suit them. They do not listen to what we have to say. We are the boots on the ground spending countless hours in the field. Making the observations that's why no one wants to answer the survey. After last years boondoggles my will never answer the survey again which is a shame.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 19, 2015 14:43:32 GMT -5
At the NYSTA Board of Director's Meeting yesterday we did talk about DEC/Cornell surveys. They admitted (bragged) that if they did not get a response they re-sent the survey up to four times in order to badger a trapper into a response. They also said that they (DEC) were the ones that worded the questions and answers choices. I say very loudly that these surveys are designed to trap trappers.I never receive a survey anyway, but if I do I will not respond. DEC pays no attention to trapper opinions and does what it d88n well pleases. Because of this I urge all New York trappers to throw the surveys in the garbage.
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Post by REDNECK on Apr 19, 2015 19:21:56 GMT -5
I to got one this year I am thinking if they sending it up to 4 times what a waste of money to be used othere ways if they dont send it in the first time you would think they get the point I think I may not send it in do to the last trap they sent out I will hold on to it for a bit but I think I am set in my ways
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Post by milkie62 on Apr 19, 2015 22:25:59 GMT -5
At the NYSTA Board of Director's Meeting yesterday we did talk about DEC/Cornell surveys. They admitted (bragged) that if they did not get a response they re-sent the survey up to four times in order to badger a trapper into a response. They also said that they (DEC) were the ones that worded the questions and answers choices. I say very loudly that these surveys are designed to trap trappers.I never receive a survey anyway, but if I do I will not respond. DEC pays no attention to trapper opinions and does what it d88n well pleases. Because of this I urge all New York trappers to throw the surveys in the garbage. I too have gotten these up to 3 or 4 times per servey.This is the 3rd season I have gotten one.Told my director about it and he would like to see it since he said he has never gotten one.What is Nysta's take on these ? I was honest on the river otter question but then again it could be biased since I only trap a drainage for water animals.Whereas someone trapping a well stocked creek or river may see many otter.Does this mean there are no otter where I trap ? No just a different type of water system IMO.
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Apr 19, 2015 22:42:56 GMT -5
I remember a threat accompanying something from the DEC, I think it was the Bobcat expansion area permit application, I'm not claiming to recall exactly what it said but it was along the lines of if I didn't complete their lackey survey I could be declined a permit in the future. Will this survey (I just got mine yesterday) carry with it any such threats? Just wondering... before I throw mine out or discover that I'll have to mail it back to DECon's minions.
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Post by trappermac on Apr 20, 2015 4:37:03 GMT -5
TMC - that's the bobcat permit, if you don't fill out your log (trap days, traps set, cats captured) at the end of the bobcat season and send it in by a specific deadline you could be denied a permit the following season.
As for the survey, since this is their “science” which apparently is the basis for their management plans, are we not better off answering the two question cited in the original post above with what will work for us? Such as #7 – “increasing”, #8 – “yes, I see otter, bobcat and fisher all over the place, can’t even let the dogs out anymore”. If we, the informed, don’t answer the questions only the uninformed will.
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Post by silverfox on Apr 20, 2015 8:32:03 GMT -5
last years survey was sent to me 4 times with little "reminder" letters, as stated above the survey questions are "loaded" and give the perception that this is "what the trappers want" which is BS, multiple choice surveys are a front to support "hidden agendas" within the ranks of the lawmakers and the folks who line their pockets and they only "care" about trapper responses so they can use them against the trapping community further on down the road IMO, just out of curiosity (i do not know) has there ever been anything positive for the trapping community to ever come from said surveys
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Post by papabear on Apr 20, 2015 10:20:40 GMT -5
Dear Friends, DEC might be better served if they consulted with NYSTA / JTI about the wording of trapping related questions contained within these surveys. At a MINIMUM allow these surveys to be reviewed first by NYSTA / JTI before mailing them out.
And, NO, I don't buy any argument by DEC that it wouldn't be fair to trappers who are not members of NYSTA to allow NYSTA/JTI to review the survey before release!
Regards
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 20, 2015 20:14:08 GMT -5
DEC has completely ignored the JTI survey that went to ALL NYSTA members and produced different responses than those of the Cornell survey.DEC has admitted to doing the wording of that survey and obviously it was a case of tricking trappers into getting the answers that DEC wanted. Now I understand that there is another survey out with questions about otters. TRAPPERS BEWARE! DEC is using these surveys to promote their own agendas and to stick it to the trappers.Times have changed and DEC CAN NOT BE TRUSTED!
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Apr 20, 2015 20:42:25 GMT -5
Question 7 is about River Otters. #7 What is your impression of river otter populations over the last 5 years? Choices are, Increasing - Decreasing - Stable - Unsure. then what zone, North/south/west/LI. Question 8 is asking if you observed any river otter, bobcat, fisher, martin or moose in the past year.. Question #7 reply: hell's bells yes the otter population is increasing. I see fresh sign on multiple watersheds, document muskrats and mink being eaten out of my traps. also aware of at least four (4) incidental catches from feedbed sets for muskrats where otter were presumably searching for prey at the time. But of course the population is growing... why else would otter have been reintroduced here decades ago if natural repopulation wasn't probable? Mission accomplished, job well done. Now when can we start legally keeping the ones trapped? This upcoming season? Question #8 reply: Everyone around here reports myriad sightings of fisher, otter and bobcat thru the widespread area. Any given day with snow on the ground one can find fresh tracks of any/all three species with relative ease. Congratulations to the DEC for their role in creating a vibrant, robust population of all three species. Will they have unrestricted trapping seasons from 10/25/15 thru 2/15/16 because of this scientific, biological success?
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Post by jsevering on Apr 21, 2015 8:13:19 GMT -5
the average person isn’t going to notice much otter sign…unless their looking for it or use to some of it or are lucky enough to see them…
when their traveling they tend to stick to the thread of the stream… when most normal people notice them is when they move into your trout pond or small lake in the winter clean it out and then are gone.. then its snow tunnels and pull outs from the ice access hole along with the diluted blood trail from the fish you stocked your pond or lake with every year… cause it gets hit every year!!…
generally in march you can see the four lane trails over the snow on some of your better trout brooks from the open thread of water over the ice and snow patch to the open thread again.. they like using your extra augured holes for tip ups as pull outs to fish from and you can still see no sign where a normal person would look….
won’t even get into some of the pig wallows you find in the spring runs where their hunting cray fish up in away from the river or the sign you see in seasonal wetlands in the spring after the snow melt or the overland cuts/routes from watershed to watershed or a cold water trout pond to the next cold water trout pond some have for circuits …
the time sherrick sent his biologist out here it snowed that morning… fresh dusting on ice a couple of hours old… we cut otter tracks at a toilet… straight out the edge of the water to the toilet… then over the hill through the woods… biologist was baffled… wanted to follow the tracks… told him he was going overland to a private pond with fish, and I didn’t have permission to be on that gentleman’s land… we drove down along the outlet for a few miles and never cut the otters tracks at any other cross over in the brook… told him they know where the easy food is and go overland and pointed out some other overland circuits I knew of as we drove looking at other and different areas for sign some, told him its been that way here all my life..
was trying to explain the bridge study may have some serious faults with it, seeing how they tend to stick to the thread of the brooks and have a tendency to go over the hills some at strategic points to take advantage of the multiple watersheds with all the hills and streams in our area and if there wasn’t a toilet there close to the bridge, chances of finding sign was slim… that had to be well over fifteen years ago now, maybe better… cant remember anymore…
can tell you its no fun walking out of areas that are a good hike in that are holding beavers and not setting a single trap due to restrictions, cause you know what is going to happen, if you set what is left for you and legal, with what you see in front of you… after awhile it eats at you, when you know even your mink set may just be a better otter set… in certain areas..
its no fun walking up on and releasing barking, hissing otters out of a mink traps and by some chance you walk up on one and its on its back facing you, looking like it wants its belly rubbed… that’s not a submissive posture… your about to be dealt with… kids and otters in the closed zones or reintroduction areas, where their not use to them, should know about that if they find themselves having to deal with one, cause their not the kind gentle, cuddly animals dec makes them out to be…
I don’t know what they actually want with their survey questions, its plain to see they have the only answers that matter, taking them by the hand and showing them didn’t help any … how the hell is fill in the dots going too…. If they have their answers and a set in stone mind set already… jim
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Zagman
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,186
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Post by Zagman on Apr 24, 2015 20:40:48 GMT -5
They obviously have a list of all licensed trappers.....does the NYSTA have access to that same list? If the surveys are going to go anyhow AND they want input, can the NYSTA/JIT work with this group to get some other information/propaganda out to the masses, i.e., membership info? Can questions be added regarding membership, i.e., are you a member, and if not, WHY?
Just curious.....not siding one way or the other, but it seems like that list would be of interest to our interests, no?
MZ
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Apr 24, 2015 21:57:51 GMT -5
Mark em up "Return To Sender" every time and send them back that way!
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Apr 24, 2015 22:01:44 GMT -5
Question 7 is about River Otters. #7 What is your impression of river otter populations over the last 5 years? Choices are, Increasing - Decreasing - Stable - Unsure. then what zone, North/south/west/LI. Question 8 is asking if you observed any river otter, bobcat, fisher, martin or moose in the past year.. Question #7 reply: hell's bells yes the otter population is increasing. I see fresh sign on multiple watersheds, document muskrats and mink being eaten out of my traps. also aware of at least four (4) incidental catches from feedbed sets for muskrats where otter were presumably searching for prey at the time. But of course the population is growing... why else would otter have been reintroduced here decades ago if natural repopulation wasn't probable? Mission accomplished, job well done. Now when can we start legally keeping the ones trapped? This upcoming season? Question #8 reply: Everyone around here reports myriad sightings of fisher, otter and bobcat thru the widespread area. Any given day with snow on the ground one can find fresh tracks of any/all three species with relative ease. Congratulations to the DEC for their role in creating a vibrant, robust population of all three species. Will they have unrestricted trapping seasons from 10/25/15 thru 2/15/16 because of this scientific, biological success? Question #8 "I saw 15 sets of moose tracks every day- Can't remember where" "Otter are EVERYWHERE!!! Tripping over each other.. Bobcats, fisher- same thing. I trap all over NYS as my license is for all of NYS. As a matter of fact I saw 5 moose and two wolves on Long Island... Marten are also in abundance. My hats off to you at the DEC"
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Post by johnrockwood on Apr 25, 2015 5:26:39 GMT -5
They obviously have a list of all licensed trappers.....does the NYSTA have access to that same list? If the surveys are going to go anyhow AND they want input, can the NYSTA/JIT work with this group to get some other information/propaganda out to the masses, i.e., membership info? Can questions be added regarding membership, i.e., are you a member, and if not, WHY? Just curious.....not siding one way or the other, but it seems like that list would be of interest to our interests, no? MZ Mark, the DEC will not allow us to have the list of licensed trappers in NY. Since this survey is sent out to trappers holding a license, admittedly randomly and without any bias, I wonder what percentage of surveys go to first time trappers, young less experienced trappers, folks who purchase a license but never really take time to trap, trappers who will be totally unaffected (at the current time) by choosing any of the answers provided, trappers who have no knowledge of what a particular question is about nor do they care, etc. ?
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Post by trapper72 on Apr 25, 2015 6:19:36 GMT -5
Since this survey is sent out to trappers holding a license, admittedly randomly and without any bias, I wonder what percentage of surveys go to first time trappers, young less experienced trappers, folks who purchase a license but never really take time to trap, trappers who will be totally unaffected (at the current time) by choosing any of the answers provided, trappers who have no knowledge of what a particular question is about nor do they care, etc. ?
John, that is exactly what is happening.
I have been sent a random survey every year for the last 5 years, only held a license for 10.
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Apr 25, 2015 9:08:40 GMT -5
Since this survey is sent out to trappers holding a license, admittedly randomly and without any bias, I wonder what percentage of surveys go to first time trappers, young less experienced trappers, folks who purchase a license but never really take time to trap, trappers who will be totally unaffected (at the current time) by choosing any of the answers provided, trappers who have no knowledge of what a particular question is about nor do they care, etc. ? John, that is exactly what is happening. I have been sent a random survey every year for the last 5 years, only held a license for 10. I did not buy a license a while back (1999-2000??) due to working too d@mn much- After I got a license again- Bang! Survey every year and the subsequent "Pretty please, fill out the survey" letters
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