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Post by erict on Feb 23, 2015 21:37:02 GMT -5
Guess they'll have more time to focus on other efforts. A snippet below, full story at this link: NY Outdoor News deer reg changes on holdBallston Spa, N.Y. — Potentially sweeping changes to New York’s deer-hunting regulations won’t be made this year. DEC officials, citing a tight schedule to complete the regulatory process to allow for public comment in time for publication in the 2015-16 hunting and trapping regulations guide, said any potential changes won’t come until next year...........
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Feb 24, 2015 5:01:38 GMT -5
the only change they need to make is shorten the regular firearms season to nine days... two weekends. other than that, good to go as it is.
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Post by silverfox on Feb 24, 2015 5:52:14 GMT -5
9 day season may benefit southern tier, certainly not northern tier
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Post by k9goodtimes on Feb 24, 2015 6:10:49 GMT -5
How does the DEC plan to protect yearling bucks when they issued 29,300 DMP's in 8N alone? Statistics favor the probability that 1/3 of those DMP's were filled on yearling button bucks. I was blessed by two large bucks last year, a first for me in the last 12 years. 2 years ago I didn't take a single deer because I chose not too. Shorten regular season gun by two weeks, extended primitive weapons season, and reduce the number of DMP'S issued. PA has a nice deer hunting format for season dates and structure.
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Zagman
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,186
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Post by Zagman on Feb 24, 2015 6:22:21 GMT -5
Any idea as to what the proposed, sweeping changes are?
Zagman
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Post by silverfox on Feb 24, 2015 7:13:38 GMT -5
K9, to back up your comment, my WMU in northern tier does not issue DMP's (6N) at any rate i hunted 8J last season for one day, everyone i hunted with had 2 DMP's, of the 6 DMP's filled that day, 5 were button bucks, and i saw no less than 50 deer in that one day, this was the first time ive hunted with a firearm in many years as im almost exclusively a bow hunter, for whatever reason the powers that be think that more DMP's is the answer and just as you stated, appears to be more detrimental based on button buck harvest and sometimes wonder if our "managers" bother to consider harvest data to base their decisions, 2nd, every season i witness locals who purchase seemingly without limit, southern tier DMP's accompanied with the common comment of "once its tagged and home, whos gonna know" i have even had the guy selling me my license tell me to just get southern tier DMP's and fill them up here...wrong answer...unfortunately having mandatory deer check stations is proly the only way to somewhat control this (which i appose) other than making sure northern and southern tier seasons do not over lap, this is a rampant issue in northern tier and i often wonder if the false harvest data is directly related to the limited DMPs available to us in some northern tier WMU's, and i can say with certainty that antlerless densities are not "in danger" as i never hit the deer woods without seeing antlerless deer, Bucks on the other hand....(who knows how many antlerless deer that are harvested in northern tier, are reported as being harvested in southern tier based on this almost common practice which in turn gives the perception of over inflated harvest in the southern tier while still maintaining that antlerless densities in southern tier are high comparably, thus the availability of endless DMP's )
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Feb 24, 2015 7:16:32 GMT -5
9 day season may benefit southern tier, certainly not northern tier why not?
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Feb 24, 2015 7:22:37 GMT -5
Any idea as to what the proposed, sweeping changes are? Zagman I've seen several different worthless crap proposals, such as blackpowder hunts between archery and firearms for does only, or both sexes, etc. Basically a bunch of stupid ideas dreamt up by non-hunting decision makers that seems to be prevalent in the trapping arena, too NYS has lost its ability to "control" deer populations mostly due to land access, and by that I don't mean deer leases. All the big farms and orchards now are posted so tight you need to turn sideways just to squeeze between their signs. Meanwhile, DED hands out unlimited nuisance permits to be filled any way they please in late summer. Come down here in the southern tier, knock on farmer's doors and ask them permission to deer hunt. If you find one who will say yes, it's a miracle,
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Post by silverfox on Feb 24, 2015 7:53:38 GMT -5
better yet how would a 9 day season benefit those who #1 work for a living and have limited time to hunt, (especially the thousands of deer hunters who are active duty military and have no control over their schedule and are likely to be absent for the entire 9 days due to military commitments) less opportunity based on limited DMPs, and success rates compared to southern tier based on deer density (especially in the adirondacks and Tug hill region) i hear a lot of trappers comment about a shorter deer season (and i am also an avid trapper from start to finish) based solely on not wanting to share the woods with deer hunters, so in essence lets give deer hunters 9 days to enjoy the Deer woods (unless your a bow hunter) and trappers get 5.5 months to monopolize the woods, (pretty lopsided) my household consumes venison exclusively as our red meat intake (as with many others) and i would be hard pressed to fill 5 of the 7 tags i receive, required for my family in that time frame here (unless your one of the dairy farm owners that receive double digit nuisance tags therefore again producing inaccurate success rate data, adversely affecting those that dont own 50 plus acres and receive DMP's and nuisance permits like candy corn on halloween) while an 8 week regular season could proly afford to be shortened a bit..only 9 days is too much of a reduction and would only lead to more nuisance permits to farmers to control deer densities and take away from the rest
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Feb 24, 2015 8:08:04 GMT -5
a shorter season, such as those successfully done in PA, OH, IA and most other states would concentrate hunter pressure in a narrow time frame. That would lead to a greater overall harvest, pressure on deer in short period of time before they adjust to pressure and adapt to avoid hunters.
I commonly fill several tags in a single outing, often two adult does at once and three times in years past I've harvested four deer in one single day. Hunters don't need several weeks of firearms season to be effective, and I'm saying that from a very serious deer hunter stance.
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Post by silverfox on Feb 24, 2015 9:18:38 GMT -5
well again your basing this on YOUR particular circumstances and not the deer hunting communities as a whole, your success rate has nothing to do with the big picture and opportunities across the board, "hunters dont need several weeks to be effective" may be true if one can get into the woods, so who cares about the guy (and i use my 20 yrs of active duty as my template) who cannot get into the woods in those short 9 days, so basically "too bad so sad, maybe next year" a fair portion of deer hunters in my neck of the woods are active duty and would have to be lucky to not have some training exercise that prevents them from hunting for several weeks in the fall (never mind only 9 days) as big Army loves to flood the training schedule in the fall months before the "deep freeze" to just say that a 9 day season across the board benefits all is false, and would most definitely lead to a reduction in licence sales due to professional commitments, a lot of folks wont bother purchasing a license if they are not going to have the opportunity to harvest a deer, to imply that one is not a serious or effective hunter if they cant be successful in 9 days is not addressing the issue of having opportunity to get in the woods, and i dont know about southern tier but up here you cannot shoot 4 deer in a day unless you have a few of the "coveted" nuisance tags to go along with your regular season rifle tag, (and a lot of us can only harvest antlered deer) seasons need to be area specific, not "New York state across the board" and i hope im wrong but if your implying that i am not a "serious deer hunter" then your grossly mistaken, the issue is the opportunity to get into the woods, not skills once one gets into the woods
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Feb 24, 2015 9:28:48 GMT -5
haven't the northern and southern zones always been managed differently? I'm speaking of the southern zone here where such proposals are being made. You seem to have the myopic view of northern-zone bias whereas not much if anything will change up there. It is here in the south where deer populations are perceived to be a problem and need control... not up there
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Post by Lonny Mattison on Feb 24, 2015 9:33:41 GMT -5
1 week bow 1 week muzzle. Gun month of November.
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Post by squash on Feb 24, 2015 10:04:23 GMT -5
K9, to back up your comment, my WMU in northern tier does not issue DMP's (6N) at any rate i hunted 8J last season for one day, everyone i hunted with had 2 DMP's, of the 6 DMP's filled that day, 5 were button bucks, and i saw no less than 50 deer in that one day, this was the first time ive hunted with a firearm in many years as im almost exclusively a bow hunter, for whatever reason the powers that be think that more DMP's is the answer and just as you stated, appears to be more detrimental based on button buck harvest and sometimes wonder if our "managers" bother to consider harvest data to base their decisions, 2nd, every season i witness locals who purchase seemingly without limit, southern tier DMP's accompanied with the common comment of "once its tagged and home, whos gonna know" i have even had the guy selling me my license tell me to just get southern tier DMP's and fill them up here...wrong answer...unfortunately having mandatory deer check stations is proly the only way to somewhat control this (which i appose) other than making sure northern and southern tier seasons do not over lap, this is a rampant issue in northern tier and i often wonder if the false harvest data is directly related to the limited DMPs available to us in some northern tier WMU's, and i can say with certainty that antlerless densities are not "in danger" as i never hit the deer woods without seeing antlerless deer, Bucks on the other hand....(who knows how many antlerless deer that are harvested in northern tier, are reported as being harvested in southern tier based on this almost common practice which in turn gives the perception of over inflated harvest in the southern tier while still maintaining that antlerless densities in southern tier are high comparably, thus the availability of endless DMP's. If what what you say is true, and I think it is, seems we need, more hunter management along with better deer management ?
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Post by silverfox on Feb 24, 2015 10:04:53 GMT -5
haven't the northern and southern zones always been managed differently? I'm speaking of the southern zone here where such proposals are being made. You seem to have the myopic view of northern-zone bias whereas not much if anything will change up there. It is here in the south where deer populations are perceived to be a problem and need control... not up there were you not the one that asked me why a 9 day season in northern tier would not be beneficial....hence my so called "myopic view" you eleganntly stated, maybe its the neg 20 degrees effecting my memory
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Zagman
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,186
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Post by Zagman on Feb 24, 2015 10:49:34 GMT -5
Many states have short gun seasons, and always have.....and the deer hunting demographic figures it out. My native Ohio has always opened the Monday AFTER Thanksgiving and closed the following Saturday.....6 days.
Iowa is similar....even PA who arguably has one of the largest deer herds nationally opens AFTER Turkey Day and only lasts a week or two ( I think its been both in my life time, one week and two weeks long)
I am not sure how a deer hunter in this state can say then don't have opportunities to deer hunt even with a shorted gun season......bows, crossbows, and muzzleloaders (along with conventional guns) have a guy chewing up three months, give or take, of hunting opportunities.....
This is a trapping website, so my bias is towards trapping and how deer seasons/deer hunters/deer leases affect my trapping.........so I am ALL FOR shorter gun seasons.
Will it ever happen........gosh, I think we'd get cable restraints before they shorten the deer seasons!
I think every hunter should be able to get 4-5 tags.....shorten the season, shoot as many as you want with those tags, and get on with it.
If you drive around my area in December on a Saturday, good luck seeing 2-3-4 trucks parked where guys are gun hunting. Conversely, a day on my trapline during bow season on a Saturday, you might see 20-30 trucks in those same spots......all private land.
I just don't think A LOT of gun hunting gets done in December....can't imagine how few do it during the week. Yet, we are all encumbered by this long season that relatively few are taking advantage of.....
The entire State of PA shuts down during gun season.....and every person in that State is in deer camp, and they have all figured out a way to do it around their work schedule.....and I bet the BULK of guys here would figure it out as well. And if you can't hunt during a shorter gun season, you have months of opportunity with other weapons of choice......
At minimum, I would love to see the deer season open later......after Thanksgiving......run it into January at that point, and let Christmas become a new deer hunting tradition for families......
Give us November to ourselves! IMO, of course!
MZ
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Post by Lonny Mattison on Feb 24, 2015 10:59:16 GMT -5
I agree with most of what you say Mark. Most because When our Northern gun season ends that first weekend in December, That Monday I can get my dogs in the woods. By that time land trapping is only a dream up here. Would not want to wait until sometime in January to release a hound.
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Post by stewa107 on Feb 24, 2015 11:01:03 GMT -5
I enjoy the longer season here in the adirondacks. My reasons are based in my southern roots so to say. I grew up with a 2 month season and it is still like that in a lot of places. Another reason is I do not get much time to go out being a single patent who also works full time. So only being able to go out only every other weekend, the longer season helps me harvest my deer to feed my family, helping me on my food bill. As for antler restrictions, I know it ruffles feathers, but I am all for it. My reasoning is not about the antlers, it's about the size of the deer. The older the deer, the bigger the deer and the more meat produced. In regards to button bucks, I personally think that goes back to proper target identification. The body shape and size of a 6 month old is a far cry from the physical characteristics of a 1 1/2 year old and so on.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Feb 24, 2015 11:47:32 GMT -5
1 week bow 1 week muzzle. Gun month of November. six week bow, two week firearms, no need for special blackpowder with today's modern technology there. Done by Dec 1st
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Feb 24, 2015 11:53:51 GMT -5
were you not the one that asked me why a 9 day season in northern tier would not be beneficial....hence my so called "myopic view" you eleganntly stated, maybe its the neg 20 degrees effecting my memory I would guess that we have more active deer hunters in just four counties near me than the entire northern zone all combined. The DEC is all concerned about managing the herd here, northern zone has no deer problem to my understanding. If they want to run a four-month season up there, fine. But down here it is counter-productive to have a long season. Hunting pressure is scattered, deer quickly learn where the no-access zones are and they hunker down in those untouched. The DEC could issue unlimited antlerless tags here, wouldn't increase the harvest any at all. Too much posted land, too many hunters over-crowded on public lands barren of deer past the first week. Most of those deer sift into the off-limits properties and thumb their hooves at passing hunters.
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Feb 24, 2015 11:59:05 GMT -5
In PA, depending where you are and where you go to hunt- Your season can run from Sept 20- Jan 25 (Bow, muzzle loader, flintlock, extended firearms season) Obviously, that is just not rifle season
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Feb 24, 2015 12:03:22 GMT -5
the bulk of deer "management" occurs during regular firearms in any state... the other seasons are purely incidental to herd control.
NY does not limit blackpowder to primitive weapons... my fifteen year old .50 cal Encore can outshoot any .30-30 lever gun for distance and accuracy. The need for a special "muzzleloader" season here in NY is moot.
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Post by kirkwooder on Feb 24, 2015 12:30:29 GMT -5
Once again, the science is being ignored, here in Steuben County, we have a doe to buck ratio of 13 to 1. It has been proven time and again that with ratios this high, not all does get bred during their first estrus cycle in the fall. This results in a second fawning period in the spring and a greater percentage of new born fawns becoming fodder for the coyotes, as well as increased winter kill during winters like the one we are having this year. I would suggest that the DEC hand out 2 doe tags only, here in the west, and once you have proven you have filled those tags, without killing a immature buck, you should be issued a buck tag. A buck is a buck no matter it's age and should be counted as such. If a hunter wishes to kill an immature deer, that should be their choice, however, they should not be allowed to kill several immature bucks and use doe tags to make them legal. In other words, fill your doe tags with does, but once you kill a buck, any buck, your done!
It is high time deer hunters were made to hold themselves to a higher standard. The days of "if it's brown it's down" should be long gone. Every deer hunter in the woods should be able to distinguish between a mature doe and an immature deer. If a hunter then decides to take the chance and fill their tag with an immature deer, and that deer happens to be a button buck, then they have made the choice to end their season.
I think that I got 5 deer tags this year.(1 gun buck, 1 either sex bow, 1 either sex muzzle loader, 2 antlerless DMP's) Of those 5 tags, 1 was a buck only tag, and I believe 2 others were either sex tags. Giving me the opportunity to kill as many as 3 mature bucks and 2 immature bucks. That needs to change. 1 buck per hunter per year, PERIOD. Once you kill a buck your season should be done. Doing this should satisfy the meat hunters, by allowing them to harvest enough does to fill their freezers while also increasing the number of mature bucks available to the horn hunters.
This would also increase the number of licences sold in the state as well. With a larger percentage of hunters killing mature bucks, an increase in interest in hunting deer in the western region of the state would certainly increase.
Along with this the DEC needs to do away with nuisance and land owner permits. I know that in my area they are widely abused. Several of the local farms bring in, unlicensed, out of state shooters, ( I refuse to refer to them as hunters) before any open deer season, and allow them to kill large numbers of deer of either sex, and only take the heads for mounting, or leave the entire deer to rot away. Most never even fill out the tag. One large dairy in my area has a large Mexican work force, that is allowed, and encouraged, to kill deer all year for their table, yet this same farm posts all their property,(1000+ acres) and only allows a small number of lease hunters to hunt during open season. Meanwhile, more and more of us are forced to compete for the public land deer population, and pay higher and higher license fees. If these farmers are having an issue with deer damaging their crops, they should let licensed hunters harvest those deer. If they don't want to open their property, then they should accept the crop loss. Are the deer not the property of all the people of the state? It is time they were treated that way.
Again just my $.02.
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Post by silverfox on Feb 24, 2015 12:40:13 GMT -5
were you not the one that asked me why a 9 day season in northern tier would not be beneficial....hence my so called "myopic view" you eleganntly stated, maybe its the neg 20 degrees effecting my memory I would guess that we have more active deer hunters in just four counties near me than the entire northern zone all combined. The DEC is all concerned about managing the herd here, northern zone has no deer problem to my understanding. If they want to run a four-month season up there, fine. But down here it is counter-productive to have a long season. Hunting pressure is scattered, deer quickly learn where the no-access zones are and they hunker down in those untouched. The DEC could issue unlimited antlerless tags here, wouldn't increase the harvest any at all. Too much posted land, too many hunters over-crowded on public lands barren of deer past the first week. Most of those deer sift into the off-limits properties and thumb their hooves at passing hunters. and this is where we can agree, i cannot speak intelligently about the southern tier, (ive only hunted there a few times however i can admit that each time i saw more deer in a day there than sometimes seen in a week of hard hunting here) and in fact admit the northern tier could stand some tweaking, in MY PERFECT WORLD (my opinion) they could easily end all deer seasons up here by mid Nov, (27 sept archery and so on) minimizing the overlap of trapping and deer hunting (of course now begins the "close before thanksgiving week!!" arguments) and still provide a robust season in the northern tier, my point being a 9 day season here would take a lot of hunters out of the equation, another 2nd order effect would be less opportunity for folks to mentor the next generation as their focus would be filling their meat larder on those few days before resorting to teaching a youngster hands on, knowing that the learning curve reduces success when mentoring first time hunters (i make it a point to allot a portion of my season every year to taking new hunters out and anyone who's spent time with young hunters know that it requires accepting "mistakes" that result in less success while mentoring those young hunters) reduce the opportunity and you reduce the number of new hunters to continue to fill the ranks which in my opinion is a huge step backwards, there will never be a "please all" answer but there surely needs to be something as close to a happy medium as can be achieved....... and MR Kirkwooder i agree 100% reference button buck harvest, could never wrap my brain around a button buck being labeled a "doe" as for land owner permits, its a broke system in my area as well, i own 40 acres surrounded by dairy farm property on 4 sides and i am not eligible for a DMP on my property but im consistently covered in does seeking "sanctuary" on my property as the "nuisance permit" holders live by the "brown is down" montra all around me
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Post by bill1960 on Feb 24, 2015 12:58:44 GMT -5
What I have seen happening here in the SZ are more and more hunters are going after that big trophy buck to hang on the wall and tell story's about how they got it and could care less about filling the freezer.back in the sixties and seventies we had hunting parties of 10 to 30 guys and would put on drives and fill everyone's doe permit in one day now you never hear anyone doing drives like that you might get 4 or 5 guys together but they just set in stands all the time and never move the deer around.Use to sound like a war zone on opening day now you might hear 5 or 6 shots all day.you can also see deer in numbers of 10 to 30 at a time eating in farmers fields during the season.Maybe a shortened season would bring back the big drives of old,but probably not because all marketing is base on getting that big Trophy buck not to fill the freezer.
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