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Post by tony1967 on Feb 20, 2015 11:13:01 GMT -5
I think it would be good if we had at least the start of a "form" type response that we can send, along with our own opinions. That way it shows a more unified front and all the pertinent facts will be in everyone's response. There are several people on here who have read the enitire thing already and have made comments, so could something be put together that could be used as a base email for everyone?
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Post by k9goodtimes on Feb 20, 2015 11:20:20 GMT -5
great idea tony. Email template so to speak.
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Post by bobsamuelson on Feb 20, 2015 11:24:11 GMT -5
If you start using a template type of response, we have been told from past responses to plans, when anti's use "form letters" they only count as 1 response!
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Post by squash on Feb 20, 2015 11:26:09 GMT -5
And lets not forget all of the land locked up in the so called LAND CONSERVACY which allows hiking and bird watching but allows no HUNTING, FISHING OR TRAPPING. Not to get off topic but, where is this land ? AlthouGh I disagree with much of the conservation easement program, it has opened tens of thousands of acres up to the general public trapper and hunter. the former Lyons Falls Pulp & Paper property that the Nature Conservancy (+/- 15,000 acres)owns on Tug Hill, is closed to trapping , BUT is open to hunting and fishing. The remainder of the property,30,000 acre Corrigan Tract, is not closed to trapping,hunting or fishing. Same with much of the former Rayonier lands,(now MWF Adirondack), Forestland Group, Lyme Timber etc..
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Post by saquelie on Feb 20, 2015 11:37:58 GMT -5
We have lands here in Essex county and Washington county that have been locked up for years. We also have state land restricted to discharge of a firearm not allowed.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Feb 20, 2015 12:06:53 GMT -5
Forestboy your statements reflect much of my thinking. Squash I disagree with you. More and more former paper company lands are being added to the forest preserve and much of them are being classified the ultra restrictive wilderness classification. There now is well over one million acres in the Adirondacks in this classification, with more continuing to be added. This plan is far from the wise use of a natural resource. I see 50 pages of attempts to justify their actions. I see proposals for future Adirondack research. I see total disregard to sound trapping regulations to harvest when the fur is at it's best. Where has the research been to justify cutting the northern zone seasons by 52%? If the deterioration has been going on for 5 to 10 years, to the point that the population can "no longer able to sustain itself" as stated by one biologist, why has DEC allowed this to reach this point? I think DEC has a Hell of a lot of answering to do about this and I demand an answer. It is to me becoming more and more evident of the ultra liberal influence of those Cornell jackasses. Is this the "new" trend of thinking within the DEC fur management team? I remember a speech given by Gordon Batcheller a number of years ago warning of just this kind of thing happening; biologists coming out of colleges influenced by off the wall liberal professors. I could go on and on.To me the plan is a disservice to the people of New York and especially to fisher as a species.Some of the New England states have quotas with which I disagree, but at least the dates of seasons are sensible.I forsee this as a fore runner of even worse things to come. Wait until you see the Pine Marten and otter management plans that are to follow. Forestboy, I can assure you that much of what you had to say will be incorporated into the JTI response.
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Post by squash on Feb 20, 2015 13:32:10 GMT -5
Forestboy your statements reflect much of my thinking. Squash I disagree with you. More and more former paper company lands are being added to the forest preserve and much of them are being classified the ultra restrictive wilderness classification. There now is well over one million acres in the Adirondacks in this classification, with more continuing to be added. This plan is far from the wise use of a natural resource. I see 50 pages of attempts to justify their actions. I see proposals for future Adirondack research. I see total disregard to sound trapping regulations to harvest when the fur is at it's best. Where has the research been to justify cutting the northern zone seasons by 52%? If the deterioration has been going on for 5 to 10 years, to the point that the population can "no longer able to sustain itself" as stated by one biologist, why has DEC allowed this to reach this point? I think DEC has a Hell of a lot of answering to do about this and I demand an answer. It is to me becoming more and more evident of the ultra liberal influence of those Cornell jackasses. Is this the "new" trend of thinking within the DEC fur management team? I remember a speech given by Gordon Batcheller a number of years ago warning of just this kind of thing happening; biologists coming out of colleges influenced by off the wall liberal professors. I could go on and on.To me the plan is a disservice to the people of New York and especially to fisher as a species.Some of the New England states have quotas with which I disagree, but at least the dates of seasons are sensible.I forsee this as a fore runner of even worse things to come. Wait until you see the Pine Marten and otter management plans that are to follow. Forestboy, I can assure you that much of what you had to say will be incorporated into the JTI response. You can disagree all you want, you cannot back up your statement, the vast majority of former paper co. Lands are still in private ownership called TIMO's, timber investment management org., and will stay private land even though the public has various rights to the properties. Each easement is diferent on the respective properties. The only recent paper co land that I can recall that the state bought fee ownership, is a portion of the Finch land near Newcomb, because environmentalists claimed some enviromental sensitivity. The state has embraced Conservation easements for a couple of reasons, they don't have the money for outright purchase, and keeping it private land keeps it a working forest. I'm a Forester who works on over 160,000 acres of former paper co.. If you like I can list the 100's of thousands of acres that fall into this category, or goe to the NYSDEC website and search Conservation easements. Trappers need to get their facts straight before they send comments to the DEC, otherwise you have no credibility.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Feb 20, 2015 13:54:50 GMT -5
I do not intend to get distracted from the primary issue of the fisher management plan. I will not get into a peeing contest with anyone.I stand by my claims. What I said is that more and more former paper company lands are being added to the forest preserve. I never spoke of former paper company lands remaining in private ownership. My point is that trappers and hunters are seeing less and less access to public lands because of the classification of much of these new forest preserve lands into the wilderness classification. There now is more than a million acres in this classification in the Adirondacks. No motorized vehicles, no snowmobiles, no chainsaws, no float planes, etc.Just what have I said that is not true?
I sent my comments to DEC today regarding the proposed Fisher Management Plan. Have you???
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Post by kirkwooder on Feb 20, 2015 15:40:57 GMT -5
Is it just me or could this whole study have been condensed to about 10 pages? It seems to me that they purposefully were extra long winded to hide the facts that matter in a jumble of meaningless BS, and I'm only 25 pages into it!
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Post by k9goodtimes on Feb 20, 2015 16:21:09 GMT -5
Spoiler alert. Doesn't get any better.
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Post by huntsman on Feb 20, 2015 20:13:15 GMT -5
Here is my comment, for what it is worth:
To Whom it May Concern;
I have reviewed the proposed Fisher management plan, and I have the following comments:
1. The shorter seasons may well be called for, but the dates are very misguided. Fisher fur primes quite late. Trapping Fisher in late October/Early November is a very wasteful practice.
2. If seasons need to be shortened, days should be taken from the beginning of the season. The expansion zone could open on December 1st, and close on December 10th. The historic fisher trapping zone could open November 25st and run until December 10th.
3. I oppose bag limits. A later, shorter, season would in practice restrict the harvest, and achieve the same objective. When dealing with a species trapped with conibears, bag limits don't work. It would be wasteful to force a trapper to leave a fisher in the woods if they happened to have a particularly successful trap check.
4. The later start for Fisher would not interfere with Raccoon trapping to an excessive degree. More Raccoon trappers are now using "dog proof" footholds instead of baited conibears. It is also possible to set a baited conibear in such a manner that it is very attractive to Raccoon, but less so to Fisher, by using a very sweet bait and avoiding a meat bait.
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Post by squash on Feb 21, 2015 9:50:29 GMT -5
I do not intend to get distracted from the primary issue of the fisher management plan. I will not get into a peeing contest with anyone.I stand by my claims. What I said is that more and more former paper company lands are being added to the forest preserve. I never spoke of former paper company lands remaining in private ownership. My point is that trappers and hunters are seeing less and less access to public lands because of the classification of much of these new forest preserve lands into the wilderness classification. There now is more than a million acres in this classification in the Adirondacks. No motorized vehicles, no snowmobiles, no chainsaws, no float planes, etc.Just what have I said that is not true? I sent my comments to DEC today regarding the proposed Fisher Management Plan. Have you??? I also addressed not getting off topic in my previous post, and I'm not in a pissing match, it's called civil discourse. It's just that I work for one of the largest Forest Management Co. In NY, (160,000 acres mostly inside the park) and know most of the people managing most all former paper co. Lands in NY. But your statement," that more and more former paper co lands are being added to the forest preserve," is simply not true. Outside of a portion of the Finch land, name one other former paper co. Land added in the last 10 years ? I have not yet sent my comments but plan to do so soon, but when I do I'll have my facts straight.
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Post by saquelie on Feb 21, 2015 11:18:56 GMT -5
After 14 drafts I have sent my comments. Have to say my tongue is plenty sore. I am willing to bet less then 5% will take the time to respond, which is a crying shame because after DEC gets done implementing there piss poor plan then and only then will we hear everyone piss and moan. My question is will the NYSTA be willing to challenge this in a lawsuit?
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Post by herm on Feb 21, 2015 12:12:40 GMT -5
After seeing what the DEC did with the season dates on bobcats in Western NY, nothing I see in the fisher plan suprizes me much. Wayne County has their monthly Federation meeting next Tuesday and I will push for them to send in a comment to oppose the fisher plan. While I am at it I might as well see if I can get the NYS Houndsmen to send in a comment opposing the fisher plan also as I can see that the way things are going down the line bad desissions and practices are going to effect them also. Infact they already have.
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Feb 21, 2015 12:51:20 GMT -5
"GOAL 2 Provide for the sustainable use and enjoyment of fishers by the public." WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN!!!?? We are outdoors people here.. Just how many times do we see fishers out running around the woods? I have seen a FEW but let's be honest, we see them when we catch them!
And like saquelie said- "I know everyone will say we gotta try, but my 2cents is they DONT CARE WHAT WE THINK."
..... They won't listen.. And soon they won't even pretend to listen
And what is this BS of the season ending Dec 10?? Open it AFTER deer season (whenever the hell that will be) and then run it for the amount of days desired. I have released PLENTY of fishers in late Dec-January. The fur is INCREDIBLE!!
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Post by squash on Feb 21, 2015 14:14:29 GMT -5
After 14 drafts I have sent my comments. Have to say my tongue is plenty sore. I am willing to bet less then 5% will take the time to respond, which is a crying shame because after DEC gets done implementing there piss poor plan then and only then will we hear everyone piss and moan. My question is will the NYSTA be willing to challenge this in a lawsuit? Sad, but I have to agree, look at the SAFE Act, a small amount of gun owners are fighting the fight. I know plenty of gun owners in my area who are complacent, stating that the SAFE Act doesn't affect them, laughable. No different than the Deer management plan, you see how much input the deer hunters had ? I will send comments on the Fisher plan, but I suspect it will do little to influence the DEC.. Too many anti's have infiltrated the DEC.. Trapping is not PC, and this plan is about appeasing downstate bunny huggers.
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Post by hardwoodcharlie on Feb 21, 2015 14:15:06 GMT -5
What a fine how do ya do this is.....just last season I was dragging beaver carcasses out of areas that I would normaly skin them on site but because DEC needed beaver I gladly did what I thought was helping us out / and them...... But if this pile of garbage goes threw I will be sure and have NY DEC return the favor ...after I reach my quota or my TROPHY it will be up to them to come release Any that get hung up after that,during or after their season...maybe if they get enough calls and get to waste enough of their time maybe they might wake up...
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Post by papabear on Feb 21, 2015 15:41:51 GMT -5
Dear Friends, The presented plan is nothing more than a hodgepodge of fluff information about fishers, combined with some historical population data, a big dose of trapper mandated harvest data' with a top dressing of taking credit (and a big self pat on the back) for the fisher expansion. It is littered with meaningless, biased, payed for, surveys with leading questions that have prepared answers designed to fool the participant into believing the (dec provided) presented answer selections are the only options available.
The plan is inconsistant and lacks sound science and research data. And by its own admission DEC acknowledges this, in their own report. In its entirety and due to its incompletness it is highly doubtful this plan can meet its own "Purpose & Goals" as outlined in Section 11~0303 of New York's Environmental Conservation Law.
Understand, I am not oppossed to expanding the fisher trapping seasons throughout NYS, but am against bag limits and seasons that dont allow for optimal value/use of the resource.
DEC's plan to regulate to achieve a sustainable fisher population in Northern NYS will prove detrimental to fisher trapping seasons in the Adirondacks. Currently, DEC is basing "Management Objectives" of an ESTIMATED POPULATION, by an analysis of TPUE and harvest data trends. DEC intends to reduce the Northern zone season to 22 days, require a mandatory fisher trapping permit and require trappers to submit a trapper effort data log book and provide the skull, lower jaw / canine tooth from harvested fisher prior to pelt sealing..........Friends, understand, if we dont stop this, this will be the beginning of a strategy that will ultimately lead to permanent restrictions and eventual limits on fisher trapping in the Dacks'.
Regards
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Post by jsevering on Feb 21, 2015 17:15:16 GMT -5
i kind of find it ironic that they wanted a fisher take limit up north twenty years ago when they had a road kill turned in up around Syracuse and got all wet and bothered about it... wrote a whole artical about it... all chairs face north or something like that by bob gotie...
all the fisher trappers called in hot and bothered about the proposed fisher limit.... then the chairs all turned southern zone to the otters.... "had to get that in there"... anyhow the ironic part is they didn't need a limit then, dont know the justification for one now.
seems their best study should of been the southeastern part of ny... where they done things half way right, thirty some odd year ago... if it isn't broke?
nathan roberts unpublished data... apendix C... we supposedly worked with him also, didn't we... thought he took all his toys with him when he left... just saying!!!... trophy animal... guess if the trapping license was now part of the hunting license... they could of sold stamps... you know to control the global warming... you gotta love it.... jim
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Post by trappermac on Feb 21, 2015 18:24:36 GMT -5
Ok, so a proposal has been set forth by the DEC and now we have 30 days to comment and if we just throw up our arms and yell BS the proposal goes through. If we comment intelligently with counter proposals perhaps adjustments can be made. If you tell me “it doesn’t matter, it will fall on deaf ears”…why am I to comment at all? Are some of you saying this is it, there is no changing it…read it and weep? Some of you certainly comment in your posts as though this is the written law only being offered for comment because they are required to, nothing will change. We can probably assume that something will be done, parts or all of this proposal will be implemented correct? A good amount of time, expense, research has gone into this report I believe…they aren’t going to just fold their cards after all that because trappers don’t like it. So far I see only Huntsman with sensible comments.
Papabear I’d like to know what your comments would be to the DEC on this proposal. I know your thoughts on the root cause for lower populations being due to poor forestry management,, mature forests, no prey species as a result of that, etc. But those practices are not offered in the proposal so if you have to stick to the body of the proposal what would your comments be? Recognizing that the population in the dacks has decreased, as you say it has for reasons that you cite.
Obviously I am against any bag limits, here in the proposed expansion area I would think that a limited season without bag limits would work just fine, the population is not that well established that guys here would run out and spend the time putting in long fisher lines just as they don’t put in cat lines, we’d probably put in a few sets here and there if we knew they were there. If I am told I can take only one I wouldn’t even bother, most would not. What would the DEC learn then with no feedback from trappers catching them?
Now in the northern zone they have proposed a shortened season with no bag limits. What do you guys up there think should be different about that, what would your proposal be to alter that? And you have to be realistic, they aren’t going to start logging as an alternative as that wasn’t even recognized in the study. Unfortunately the proposal is what it is, they have decided to manage the population with trapping regs.
And we need some guidance here from NYSTA officers and JTI folks, we’re sitting here with a booklet that we had nothing to do with and aren’t privy to what it took to get to this point. We’re just told to comment……comment what??
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Post by herm on Feb 21, 2015 19:08:13 GMT -5
I have yet to talk to a small game hunter in region 8,and I do get around through region 8, that wants to see the fisher overly protected. Hunters dont want them wiped out, but they also dont want to give them an unfare advantage over the other small game animals that currently populate region 8. The current plan will certainly change the map in my opinion in the course of ten years.
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Feb 21, 2015 19:31:55 GMT -5
Of course comment and share your opinions on this matter. I just believe, as I have stated, the DEC could give a rat's behind what we think or say.. Or will take our opinions into consideration. And if anybody thinks otherwise.... Just review the otter fiasco... AND... If they really wanted to address the "problem" of "declining" numbers in the Dacks... Hire some people that understand "Forever Wild=Forever Dead". That will NEVER happen
A day at DEC offices: Let's see.. Mr DEC Bureaucrat #1 "Trappers don't seem to trust our motives. Wonder why?" Ms DEC Bureaucrat #2 "Let's tell them coyotes numbers are way down and we may have to consider coyote quotas. Perhaps shortening deer season so the coyotes can eat. And we need beaver carcasses to set up bait stations so we can avoid this. We can offer them a Pez dispenser for their troubles"
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Post by squash on Feb 21, 2015 19:33:58 GMT -5
I'm from up north and I like others have stated would like the season to run longer into DEcember, shorten it on the front Side if they must, but Fisher caught before mid Nov are of poor quality. The only reason they'd want skull, teeth, or data book is to make it harder for any trapper to sell the pelt if they caught one out of season.
Seems to me shortening the season and putting unreasonable regulations and hoops for trappers to jump through, will have little effect on increasing Fisher populations. The Fisher is indigenous tho NY, but has to compete with the Coyote that is an invasive species, the DEC aught to start treating the coyote as the invasive species that it is. Read the Book, Trappers of NY, the likes of Nick Stoner, Nat Foster, in the early 1800's caught fisher, marten, mink , and occational wolf and Mtn lion, but there's no mention of these early trappers ever catching coyotes.
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Post by papabear on Feb 21, 2015 21:41:47 GMT -5
Dear Mr Trappermac, My comments will be the same as I have been telling them each time they feel the need to regulate and set new rules and restrictions.......... I tell them to continue what they have been doing for awhile..... DO NOTHING!!!!!. Until they decide to commit on addressing the core problem, habitat or loss of sustainable habitat on State Forest Lands there is NOTHING that new regulations are going to achieve, NOTHING. Contrary to the "Fisher Management Plans" contention, trapping is not the reason for the decline of fisher population in the Adirondacks. ITS THE LACK OF SUITABLE HABITAT WITH A SUSTAINABLE FOOD SOURCE! Until DEC adresses it there certainly is no point in implimenting additonal regulations because it stands to reason ONE CANNOT CATCH OR ENJOY WHAT IS NOT LIVING THERE! And all the regulations in the world are not going to enhance the fisher population the nearly sterile environment of the "Forever Wild Forests" of the Adirondacks.
With NYSDEC's "Purpose & Goals" mentallity of "Maintain or enhance fisher populations in all areas of the state WHERE SUITABLE HABITAT EXISTS". I would think at a minmum the Dept would have to re~establish a new base line fisher population estimate simply based on the changes in geographic distribution, habitat ecology, and foraging ecology. Changes caused by neglecting to properly manage the forests and maintain suitable habitat.
Imposing restrictive regulations without enhancing/providing habitat will only lead to more restrictive regulations as the population never recovers.
Remember a year or so ago, DEC sent out a booklet that asked fisher trappers to plot their catch locations, A look at the harvest densitys confirms what us trappers were saying, that fisher were moving out of the core of the Dacks' to the periphery. Further evaluation of the study maps cleary shows that fisher migrated to areas of sustainable habitat where prey/food was suffient to sustain a population.
It is my opinion and belief that the NYSDEC has no intention on providing, enhancing, or maintaining adaquate sustainable habitat for fisher or any wildlife that currently roams the states' "Forever Wild Forests". Its only attempts at wildlife management in the Adirondacks will be through restrictive regulation to the point and time there is no longer any wildlife left to manage. I truely believe that the DEC is merely a political puppet whose strings are controlled by the millionaire backed tree hugging environmentalist, politically correct politicians, and those within the department who are opposed to sportsmen making a profit from the wildlife resource..............therefore I will continue to suggest and reccomend that they do NOTHING!!!!
Regards
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Post by graydog on Feb 21, 2015 23:19:50 GMT -5
I went to school at Wanakena and it was always my understanding that within the Adirondack and Catskill parks there is a legislative prohibition based on the principle of "forever wild" that prohibits the management of the forests for any purpose. If that is still true what authority does the DEC have to manage that forest land for wildlife habitat? Wouldn't legislative action be necessary to change that?
Good luck dealing with bureaucrats who have to answer to your legislative friends in the urban areas of New York. Not trying to point out the obvious but bureaucrats aren't elected, legislators are.
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