paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Feb 19, 2015 16:46:56 GMT -5
I want to inform all New York trappers that the long awaited Fisher Management Plan has finally been released for public comment. Handled differently this time, it is only to be found in the DEC website and not in the New York State Register.To access the plan go to :www.dec.ny.gov/animals/9357.html Please read the plan thoroughly and make polite comments. We only have 30 days to comment.
Thank you,
Al West
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wcs
Posts: 1,159
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Post by wcs on Feb 19, 2015 17:54:41 GMT -5
I would like to hear from our association leaders on their thoughts and concerns.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Feb 19, 2015 18:18:00 GMT -5
NYSTA and JTI believe the plan is too flawed, should be scrapped, and redone.We feel the plan should be based upon sound science. We favor opening a season in those new units in the southern tier and central New York. We oppose that season being opened from Oct.25 through Nov.2. We oppose all quotas except for pine marten and remind trappers for the implications for other species in the future. We oppose shortening Adirondack seasons in half without any sound science to justify it. We oppose 3 seperate season dates within the state and feel that will create a law enforcement nightmare, also contribute to increased illegal activity. We oppose seasons set by a flawed DEC/Cornell survey with trick questions geared to get the responses that DEC wanted. We favor later fisher trapping dates, when they sre fully prime, and DEC repeatedly ignores us.We do agree with not touching the southeastern,Catskill, and most northerly WMU's Enuf said for now
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Post by johnrockwood on Feb 19, 2015 19:36:29 GMT -5
NYSTA has believed for some time that fisher harvesting opportunities should exist in parts of New York where there is no open season at the present time. However, we disagree with the major components of the draft plan.
NYSTA is opposed to bag limits on any furbearer other than marten. The length of the season will manipulate the harvest numbers without the use of limits. We have been informed that bag limits can and will be used for other species in NY if this plan sets the precedence to do so.
NYSTA is opposed to opening the fisher seasons in all areas on October 25th and closing the three areas on three separate dates. This creates a law enforcement nightmare. The seasons should open on appropriate dates that would allow for the proper length season and still provide for them all to close on December 10th with all skins required to be sealed by December 20th. We've been told for years that the Department only wanted to implement regulations and changes that made things simpler for law enforcement. Seems this contradicts that approach.
As to the shortened season in the Adirondacks: First and foremost is to ensure that the fisher population is not depleted by over harvesting. However, at this time there is no proof that that is happening. We have been told that proper science has to dictate how wildlife is managed. Show us the science. Our belief is that the decrease in the fisher harvest in the Adirondacks is because of a loss of easy access for trappers (closed roads and trails on public lands, sale of private lands to the state, posted and patrolled private lands, etc.) and degradation of habitat. Fisher have to have food to survive. Trappers have to have reasonable access on public lands.
I've only skimmed the 50+ pages of this proposal. NYSTA's JTI Committee will be developing a response as soon as we all read and digest the draft in it's entirety. I will say, the draft is about exactly what we expected, unfortunately.
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Post by squash on Feb 19, 2015 20:06:35 GMT -5
This draft management plan loses any credibility it may have had when they injected Climate Change effects on Fisher populations. Future winters with lower than normal snowfall and warmer temperatures, when is this going to happen ? Bag limits and shorter trapping seasons NOW because maybe 100years from now global temps might rise 1-4 degrees ? They've got to be kidding ? No mention on how fur prices influence fisher harvest ? It would have made sense to cross reference yearly harvest data with fur prices for that year. That IMO has more to do with population fluctuations than anything else.
Most of the draft plan is typical bureaucratic mumbo, jumbo.
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Post by k9goodtimes on Feb 19, 2015 21:05:30 GMT -5
Why is the North Appalachian hills region not being opened for a Fisher season? With an aggregate population prediction higher than 2 areas currently open and higher than one proposed to be opened in this draft, that makes no sense.
There is a sustainable and harvestable population in 8r 8n and 8p.
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Post by saquelie on Feb 19, 2015 22:05:17 GMT -5
I spent 3 hrs reading this B.S and you could fry an egg on my forehead. With that I believe anything we say will be a waste of good paper my grandsons could be coloring on. I know everyone will say we gotta try, but my 2cents is they DONT CARE WHAT WE THINK. 2003 was the last time I received a survey card.
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Post by forestboy on Feb 19, 2015 22:16:52 GMT -5
The DEC still don't know how to tell when fur primes, just like the bobcats.
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Post by papabear on Feb 19, 2015 22:52:50 GMT -5
Dear Friends, I have the entire 50 page "New York State Fisher Management Plan" proposal sitting in front of me. I will sum it up in one word...... BULLSHIT!!!!!
This plan advances two goals for managing fisher populations in New York that are closely aligned with the goals of the NYSDEC Bueau of wildlife,including:
GOAL 1 Maintain or enhance fisher populations in all areas of the state where suitable habitat exists.
GOAL 2 Provide for the sustainable use and enjoyment of fishers by the public.
NOTE: No where does this report address the reason for the apparent decline in the fisher populations in the Adirondacks while there is a concurrent increase and expansion of fisher in non traditional habitats of the southern zone portions of the state. No mention is made for development of, enhancement of, or maintianing suitable, substainable habitat with any consideration of the important ecological balance in areas being vacated by the wildlife resource. DEC seems to be so highly focused on the expansion of the fisher range in the southwestern part of the state they continue to neglect to address the core problem of the declining fisher population and sustaining habitat in the Adirondack State Forests. Proposed: Northern Zone 22 day October 25 ~ November 15 northern zone season based on the results of a 2011 trapper mail survey which asked questions on land trapping season preferences in NY ..........didnt see that one coming did we!
Central / Western New York A limited 9 day season with a limit of one fisher
Personally, to me this proposal complys to a protocol and bears little concern for what we think. Just going thru the motions before they shove it up our............well you know where.
Regards
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Feb 19, 2015 23:37:29 GMT -5
Right on Mr.PapaBear, right on. I've spent all evening reading and rereading these 50 pages of Horseshit. I see a lot of attempts to justify what they want to do. I believe that sound science should be the justification for making changes. All that I see is what they want to do in the Adirondacks. How can they cut the season by 52& without having performed the proper occupancy and sustainability studies. Where have they been with the decline in the core Adirondack population? Why do they refuse to acknowledge the true reasons for the decline? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that.Has DEC gotten so carried away with the fisher expansion into western New York that they have neglected the Adirondacks? These Cornell/DEC trapper surveys are nothing but garbage, with trick questions carefully worded to get the answers they wanted. Now they repeatedly refuse to listen to trapper requests, instead using these corrupt surveys to justify their season setting.No regard at all is given to quality prime pelts. They talk of "trophy" animals. They talk of Climate Change. Where is the truth; Forever Wild, Forever Dead! We don;'t harvest apples in June, we shouldn't harvest fisher in October ! As one that considers himself a Conservationist I must say that this plan is far from the wise use of a renewable resource.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Feb 19, 2015 23:47:53 GMT -5
Just what is "suitable habitat"? That one scares heck out of me. Is that wording included so that DEC can say the Adirondacks no longer are "suitable habitat" as an excuse?
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Post by chappy on Feb 20, 2015 0:01:00 GMT -5
I don't even know where to begin with this. The non-sense of the regulations is contrary to the data they are giving. If the species has thrived, expanding across the state with current regulations it makes no sense to limit it anymore. This has been accomplished with less access for trappers, degraded habitat in the Adirondacks and with greater competiton from other species. Such as eastern coyotes, expansion of Bobcats and increase of raptors, just as an example. How do they even expect to enforce these regulations with so many differing borders. So why? ......because PA just across the border has a limit of one??? How about a personal mission from a DEC official that stated..."I want to see limit on fishers before I retire"....as stated several years ago during a Region 3 federation meeting. I guess this higher wildlife official will be retiring this year following the new regs??? I have always thought that NYSTA has tried to assist DEC in any way possible, I think that NYSTA has bent more then they should have ever been asked to. My opinion is enough is enough. I'm not trying to start a Sabres rattling here, but maybe it is time. Courts are hearing wildlife and habitat mismanagement cases vs. States, around the country. Maybe it's just time to toss them the bird and lawyer up!!! In the meantime get your comments in and be Loud!!!
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Feb 20, 2015 6:00:52 GMT -5
Like I said in the otter thread earlier this month... there comes a time and place where outdoorsman in any state have to draw lines and hold their ground against any state DNR. NYS is not alone with that, nor are we immune to that. imo any further beaver-trap restrictions due to a few otter in the general area, too few by DEC standards to have a season for is one of those lines. This one appears to be another.
As others here more knowledgeable than me have said, where is a habitat management plan for expanding wildlife populations in wilderness dead zones? A scientific plan for sensible logging, clear-cutting and open areas improvement would benefit all wildlife species with nil exceptions. imo it is also time for conservationists to join forces and dictate to the DEC how our sportsman tax dollars are being spent... or misspent. Taxation without representation has caused protests and uprisings in this country's past.
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Post by Lonny Mattison on Feb 20, 2015 6:01:10 GMT -5
Could some of you fellas take us step by step on how we should respond? I am agreeing with all you fellas as most should.
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Post by johnrockwood on Feb 20, 2015 7:01:14 GMT -5
Lonny, the JTI Committee will be developing an official NYSTA response to the plan as quickly as possible. We will print that information here and anywhere else we can get the word out to trappers. NYSTA has had plans in place for a long time to send out a special mailing to members in regard to this plan. This plan is exactly what the JTI Committee argued against at every meeting with the DEC for years now. As Al stated, we've been ignored. Although some of us were privy to some parts of the plan, it was hearsay until it appeared in print. We were asked to withhold the passing out of information and comments until we were able to see the actual plan in print. After seeing the plan, the only reason I can see for being asked to "wait until you see the whole plan in print" is so that we would have a much shorter time in which to help other trappers understand the negative implications of the plan and prepare adequate responses. The JTI has worked closely with the Department on all trapping related issues for years. The joint cooperation was excellent. Evidently the "joint" in JTI negotiations with the Department is gone........... Needless to say, I'm thoroughly disgusted. Thousands of trappers are going to have to send comments opposing this plan or we are going to see our trapping heritage in NY forever changed. Like Forever Wild, our heritage will die as well.
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Post by k9goodtimes on Feb 20, 2015 7:46:37 GMT -5
1. Find stick 2. Locate dead horse 3. Beat said horse with found stick
This "plan", if it can even be called such, is clearly a bureaucratic middle finger to trappers and sportsmen. It is full of conflicting information, counter intuitive "studies", contradictory statements, and raises more concerns than it addresses. My question is, how many negative comments will it take for them to actually listen? Will they? Or will we just get a tap on the shoulder as we are bent over and get it broken off in our backsides?
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Post by Lonny Mattison on Feb 20, 2015 8:30:17 GMT -5
Thanks John
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Post by wbg on Feb 20, 2015 8:57:33 GMT -5
K9; All You can do is try. Lots of good post's here. You all seem to have a good grasp on what the potential consequences are of adopting this plan. I wish We had the same involvement and leadership here in Maine regarding Our ongoing Lynx debacle. Climate change! Typical.
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Post by squash on Feb 20, 2015 9:30:34 GMT -5
All you have to do is look where this came from, Cornell. Anything that comes out of Cornell these days is a bunch of liberal progressive B.S.. Tompkins County is one of the only 2 upstate counties that did not pass a resolution opposing the SAFE Act. The Cornell inteligencia are anti-hunting, gun and trapping. The proof is in the plan, bag limits , shorter seasons, climate change,etc..
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Post by forestboy on Feb 20, 2015 9:40:21 GMT -5
Here is a summation of several different peoples thoughts. It may be useful in the formulation of the official NYSTA response. If not please delete it.
The Adirondack Forest Preserve has been in place for over one hundred years, "Forever Wild, Forever Dead". Because of over protective constraints proper forest management is impossible. Today we have an over mature forest, very little prey for the fisher, or any other predator. With the decline in dairy farming throughout the rest of the state those fields and pastures are reverting back to woodlands. The DEC likes to brag about the fisher explosion in central and western New York, but it is not due to any management on their part. Those fisher are coming naturally into those areas as a natural range expansion from the Catskills, Adirondacks, and Pennsylvania. The fisher are where the food is.
More and more lands previously owned by paper companies are being acquired by the state. Due to pressures from the large environmental groups much of those lands are being classified as wilderness, the most restrictive classification. Over one million acres are within this category. Consequently less and less land is available to hunters and trappers due to roads being closed into those wilderness areas.
The entire plan lacks any sound scientific basis. DEC appears to be on a path of completely ignoring the fur as a valuable resource and only creating "trophy" animals. Fisher (and bobcat) fur do not prime up until after the proposed season closes.
Wise use has gone out the window, and with this plan, so has proper management.
Believe it or not there are people in this state who do trap for a portion of their income, fisher is one of the few animals in NY that still has a decent market, you will be punishing these few New Yorkers.
No where does this plan address the reason for the apparent decline in the fisher populations in the Adirondacks while there is a concurrent increase and expansion of fisher in non traditional habitats of the southern zone portions of the state. What is the plan for development of, enhancement of, or maintaining suitable, sustainable habitat with consideration of the important ecological balance in areas being vacated by the wildlife resource? DEC seems to be so highly focused on the expansion of the fisher range in the southwestern part of the state they continue to neglect to address the core problem of the declining fisher population and sustaining habitat in the Adirondack State Forests. Was a study conducted to document fisher in the Adirondack Forest or is the DEC solely relying on trapper harvest reports that are artificially limited due to increased road closures and areas being declared Forever Wild?
Recommendations:
Open the fisher so that it closes on the same day statewide. If you want a 9 day fisher season in the Western part of the state run it from 1 December to 10 December. Your current plan creates a law enforcement nightmare. If all regions in the state close on December 10th with all skins required to be sealed by December 20th, you make it easier for your ECO’s to enforce. The NYSTA has been told for years that the Department only wanted to implement regulations and changes that made things simpler for law enforcement. Your current plan contradicts that approach. "Poor laws make good outlaws"
I am opposed to bag limits on any furbearer other than marten. Use the length of the season to control the number of fisher harvested instead of limits.
Initiate a study in the Forever Wild areas that are currently not trapped due to the lack of access to assess the true population of fishers in the Adirondacks.
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Post by papabear on Feb 20, 2015 9:59:31 GMT -5
Dear Friends, The Fisher management plan as presented is inaccurate, misleading and incomplete. The NYSDEC states that it supports scientifically~based wildlife management, yet in its determination of new regulatory RESTRICTIONS pertaining to the Northern Zone, they use published density estimates for ecologically~similar areas of the northeastern U.S. and sex ratio data, "WE ESTIMATED FISHER POPULATION ABUNDANCE AND HARVEST RATES." in Adirondack WMU"s........It appears to me that the DEC is trying to broad brush the Central/Western study data to somehow include population density and management stratigies for the entire state.
After reading over this so called management plan a couple of times it becomes very apparent why DEC suggested we wait until the plan comes out before commenting. The plan as presented basically determines or at the very least leads one to believe that fur trapping is the leading detrimental cause of decline to the Northern Zone Fisher population!
In effect this "Fisher Management Plan" is taking the approach of regulatory management to conserve the fisher population instead of sound environmental management. Regards
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Post by squash on Feb 20, 2015 10:01:12 GMT -5
Forest boy, I agree with most of your post, except for where you state, former paper co lands being turned into designated wilderness. Except for portions of the former Finch Prynn land just about all former paper co. Lands have stayed in private ownership and encumbered with conservation easements. Many tens of thousands of acres have been opened to the public, although access is still an issue.
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Post by saquelie on Feb 20, 2015 10:36:04 GMT -5
And lets not forget all of the land locked up in the so called LAND CONSERVACY which allows hiking and bird watching but allows no HUNTING, FISHING OR TRAPPING.
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Post by saquelie on Feb 20, 2015 10:36:14 GMT -5
And lets not forget all of the land locked up in the so called LAND CONSERVACY which allows hiking and bird watching but allows no HUNTING, FISHING OR TRAPPING.
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Post by k9goodtimes on Feb 20, 2015 11:08:03 GMT -5
Id wager that there is as much "Land Trust" or "Nature conservancy" land in 8N as there is public land now. It is all around Hi-Tor, Harriet Hollister, Bare Hill wmu's. With that much protected public land there should be no issues ensuring reproductive populations. That's just in my small area.
Not even going to start about the Finger Lakes National Forest which had 2 fisher captures that I know of this year. And not having an open season listed for 8N, 8R, 8P.... come on. My son will be 14 before this is revisited in 10 years. This cant be allowed to pass.
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