tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Dec 13, 2014 8:19:02 GMT -5
I remember the one and only time my oldest brother went hunting with me and a brother that used to be my trapping and hunting partner when we were kids. To be clear, I have 4 brothers and 5 sisters, I'm #7 out of 10 kids and the brother I always trapped & hunted with was #6, the oldest brother was #2... I guess that's as clear as mud now. ANYWAYS: #2 asked us why we wanted to hunt the tall pines (about 500 acres old growth up in the Adirondacks near our camp), we answered that it was perfect deer habitat, we could see a long way for clear and responsible shots, blah blah blah... He asked us who in the heck told us that, we replied that it was the hunting class instructor from years back, and he just laughed. "It may look good to YOU, but that doesn't mean it does to the DEER... They may pass through here, they may bed here, but they don't eat here or otherwise live here. And besides, neither of you has ever shot one here, let alone ever even SAW one in here, right?" That day he showed us the ropes, taught us a lot, and we learned the lesson.
Too bad the elites are so prideful they can't the same lesson.
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Post by bearman60 on Dec 13, 2014 9:39:12 GMT -5
as i read this thread i see everyone does agree that loss of habitat is a big issue in the north country and that fisher harvest would be better if in a later season as far as fur quality. we have fisher here in the southern tier but no season.yesterday while hunting seen quite a bit of sign in our grouse habitat areas.so what are the chances of getting dec to clear cut some sections of forest habitat for grouse as it would provide habitat for fisher and other fur bearers as well.just a thought,hope we have a season next year!this would benefit hunters also.totally agree later season would make for better fur.imo
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Dec 13, 2014 11:43:40 GMT -5
Just my two cents, but this should have also been in my last post... #6 and I hunted that old growth pine forest instead of our family land within a stone's throw because our land was miserable to navigate sometimes because of all the young growth. It had been a farm at one point, abandoned back in the 40's because - well, go figure, short growing season, terrible winters, sandy (and not at all fertile) soil, no markets nearby, on and on. My Dad and my uncle bought it in October 1953 for $1,600... almost 400 acres, over 1-5/8 miles road frontage, nearly 2 miles on the water. We're taxed more than ten times that every year on it, now.
And the deer on our lands are thick as the Siberian Deer Keds that now infest them.
I guess my point in this is to answer bearman60's post: These days, we OBVIOUSLY cannot trust politically motivated decisions to be anywhere close to good, or right, or of any other higher conscience. The state lands will NOT be managed for what's best for nature's abundance, only for votes. Therefore, I believe that the only "salvation" for proper management lies with privately-owned property. Even in the face of APA threats, one can STILL utilize Forest Management Plans for their lands, AND get an almost decent tax break, as well. Not ALL lands belong to the state, nor are they all controlled by the new aristocracy that doesn't need to go to Colorado to get a legal high, they just establish a faux residency within the limits of the Adirondack Park where they can regale themselves as royalty around their Nouveau Great Camp fireplaces and get high on the irresistibly beautiful aroma and intoxicating, rose-petal smell of their own farts produced from elite French wines. I mean, look at what they've done to the SIGNS!!! Seriously, all signs have to "blend" with the forests and are brown, etc.; nevermind the fact that for NINE MONTHS out of the year, the "NATURAL" colors of the park are BLACK AND WHITE!!! We actually have SNOW here, m'lords 'n' ladies!!!! AND PAVEMENT!
GAHHH!!!! rant off...
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tmc
#2 Newhouse
Posts: 2,447
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Post by tmc on Dec 13, 2014 11:49:15 GMT -5
Um, sorry to detour one of the best fisher trapping threads to be found anywhere...
On our land, the fisher are back, but not in the numbers they once were; we very rarely see any sign on the state lands and old growth. On the other hand, the fisher here at our home/orchard, and at our farm, are more abundant than they ever were up north. The camp is about 30 miles north of home.
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Post by kirkwooder on Dec 13, 2014 11:52:15 GMT -5
The ADk park is designated as "Forever Wild" and it is against the law to harvest any timber, mine for any resources, or clear any forested areas for any reason. No matter if it is good for the wildlife or not. I don't think that there is any thing that the DEC can do about it, it's not up to them. I believe it was a state decree back in Teddy Roosevelt's time. The Federal government might even have their hands in it some how, but I'm not entirely sure.
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Post by brushwolf64 on Dec 13, 2014 14:19:19 GMT -5
It can be changed but it has to be done through the NYS Senate.(I believe that's correct)It would have to change the current designation to a new one. Basically the law would have to be changed or amended. That's where all the problems would start to occur with all those who don't understand or care about the dynamics of proper wildlife/woodland management. The older I get the less I care for politics and the recourse that it has on most issues. As I said in the post above the 2 don't mix and shouldn't have ever been put together in my opinion.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Dec 14, 2014 12:47:11 GMT -5
Perhaps I can shed a little light about the New York State Forest Preserve. It was 120 years ago by the legislature and is an article of the NYS Constitution.There are about 3 million acres owned and protected by the state. The bulk of these , about 2.6 million acres are within the Adirondacks, the rest in the Catskills. These lands are to be held "Forever Wild", and in that respect is a good thing from them falling into the hands of the developers. Later all lands, public and private within a "Blue line" became part of the Adirondack and Catskill Parks.The state owned lands within the forest preserve are broken down into numerous land classifications, the most common of which is "Wild Forest" and "Wilderness". In the Adirondacks over one million acres are classified as wilderness, the most restrictive classification. In this classification all motor vehichles are prohibited, no float planes, and even chain saws to cut dead wood are prohibited. Access is by foot only, which severely hampers all but the most physically fit. As more and more lands are added to the preserve through acquisitions of mostly former paper company lands, they are being mostly classified as wilderness thanks to the pressures applied by the large environmental groups such as the Adirondack Council and Adirondack Mountain Club. The DEC is charged with maintaining these lands, within the direction of the Constitution. Therefore the lands are not managed for good forestry practises or wildlife management. In fact DEC is seeing less and less funding and consequently are doing a poor job of managing these lands. Case in point is the Moose River Plains where maintainence of the roads falls upon the towns of Indian Lake and Inlet. Sadly a number of public campsites have been closed as well as existing infra structure, such as the estate at Foxx Lair, the Old Farm Road, removal of forest fire towers, and burning of Ranger Stations, all closed or destroyed. What a shame. Yet the state continues to add more and more lands even though they do not maintain what they already own. In the Adirondacks an agency, the Adirondack Park Agency has been established to direct uses of private land within the park. This agency is much hated. There are some that believe there is a long term goal of making these lands into a national park. As a consequence to all of this the lands are not being properly administered. Trees can not be cut, not even salvaged from past blow downs and we now have an over mature forest with little under story. These lands are more and more becoming less suitable to wildlife. Nothing makes me more sad than to watch deer standing on their hind legs in deep snow, reaching as high as they can reach to feed. I believe this over mature forest is unfriendly to a lot of wildlife and that nit is a major factor in the decline of fisher in the central and eastern Adirondacks. The "Forever Wild" clause can be broken, such as when Gore Mountain ski area was built, also the Adirondack Northway. Yet to try to change the clause to allow proper forest management is virtually impossible thanks to the protectionists. In the long run with a rotting forest unhospitable to wildlife what have they really protected, and it makes one wonder if the ulterior motive is to rid the lands of activities such as trapping, hunting, and fishing simply because the lands and waters are barren of fish and wildlife. A back door, twisted approach, but easily within the realm of thinking of some of the more radical.
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Post by hunter35 on Dec 14, 2014 17:36:59 GMT -5
My belief is someday the Adirondack park with have a forest fire and burn, either caused by mother nature or some individual .. Just my two cents !!
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Post by kirkwooder on Dec 14, 2014 22:01:53 GMT -5
The cold hard truth is that the vast majority of the population of this state have no idea what constitutes good wildlife habitat. They truly believe that mother nature will create the best habitat for the majority of critters.
The truth is that man is part of the equation and not the whole of the problem. We are the Alpha predator. Without the human equation the sums don't ad up! Wise use of what the good Lord has made available to us seems like the wisest course to me, but what do I know!
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Post by papabear on Dec 15, 2014 21:42:13 GMT -5
Dear Friends, I went out rabbit (snowshoe hare) hunting yesterday. As I was making my way down the trail I came across a set of fisher tracks, a trench thru the 8" of snow actually, as it broke into the open where it crossed the trail. I veered off the trail and followed them into a stand of mixed softwoods to see where it was headed. The tracks were all over in the softwoods as it hunted (almost methodical it seemed). The fisher went up and back the length at about 25~30' spaced intervals and then back and forth at about the same spaced intervals thru the majority of the stand. This is not the first time Ive seen this hunting routine, as I have seen nearly identical hunting patterns at other places in softwood cover. A trap set for fisher in these areas would surely be noticed by one......It was good to see those tracks as I had harvested two at sets I had set about 300 yards away a few weeks earlier.....Over the years Ive found some real good fisher locations while out hare hunting..... I only hope that fisher had better luck getting a rabbit than I did.
Regards
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Post by erict on Dec 15, 2014 22:28:39 GMT -5
Interesting what some other Northeast and midwest states have for 2014 fisher trapping seasons compared to NY:
Maine - November 2-December 31 (Nov. 15 - December 15 in parts of the state. Season limit of 10. Marten, bobcat, fox, etc. overlap seasons.) New Hampshire - December 1-31 (Season limit of 10. No marten, bobcat seasons) Rhode Island - December 1-24 (Season limit 4. No marten season.) Massachusetts - November 1-22 (Box or cage traps only. No marten. Bobcat season is November 1-30) Connecticut - November 20-December 31 (Season limit 4) Vermont - December 1-31 (No marten season - incidental takes must be turned over to F&G)
New York - October 24-December 10 (Marten season same. Season limit 6 marten.)
Pennsylvania - December 21-25 (Season limit 1. Bobcat Dec 20-Jan 11. No marten season.) Michigan - December 1-15 (Season limit 1 fisher or 1 marten.) Wisconsin - October 31-December 31 (Permit only, season limit 1) Minnesota - November 29-December 4 (Season limit 2. Marten season same and same 2 season limit.)
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Post by papabear on Dec 15, 2014 23:00:50 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Erict, Thanks for sharing the info. I personally dont care for season limits! Here in NYS ( the 'Dacks in particular) its not a case of available territory for fisher its a case of declining habitat and lack of proper forest management to promote and ensure good habitat! The shear land mass of the Adirondacks with its large remote tracts of inaccessable wilderness should support an incredible population of fisher and all wildlife species, but this states "Forever Wild" policy and the overseeing APA's philosphy of protect the forests and its natural resourses at all costs is proving to be the detrimental factor of declining wildlife inhabitants within in the "Park" on state owned lands. Regards
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Post by bearman60 on Dec 16, 2014 18:34:13 GMT -5
papabear,am seeing a lot of fisher sign in my area of the southern tier.hopefully the dec opens a season here this year so i can try to tag one instead of releasing them.they are a fiesty critter!thanks for your input.
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Post by papabear on Dec 16, 2014 22:11:03 GMT -5
Dear Friends,......Mr. Paintedpaw wrote..."This is is a wild idea, but let me throw it out there: If DEC is so set on that Oct.25 opening date than let's change the regs so that no conibears may be used on land until Nov.15 and any live caught fisher must be released. Also institute an accidental catch policy which DEC refuses to do. Also get rid of that ban on conibears after DEC.10 because someone might catch a pine marten.Certainly the coon trappers have the dog proof tools to take coons without using conibears. I know some will scream at this proposal, but it would allow those that want to trap coons or coyotes early without killing early fisher"
Mr. Paintedpaw, I can certainly see the merit to your proposal, and I would be all for it if DEC would extend the fisher season until the end of December. Un~baited/lured 160 sized bodygrips in coon trails could still be permitted. I would think bodygrips set for fisher after the close of deer season or (December 10) should be elevated above the ground to elimiate the possibility of catching hunting dogs. Having the marten season run concurrent with fisher season would also be helpfull. Regards
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Dec 16, 2014 22:58:39 GMT -5
It is just a wild idea of mine. Right now I'm waiting to see the new proposed Fisher Management Plan that DEC has been working on. Hopefully they listened to our suggestions and we will have sensible, scientific based proposals.
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Post by jimbison on Dec 17, 2014 8:23:30 GMT -5
been following along on this reading and learning, I cannot agree more with the idea that some fisher become wary of some sets or spots. On the other hand most of my poles will be visited thruout the year as new scratch marks are almost always on my poles.The self set limits per area are are along the same line as I have be doing for the past several years. Most of the best areas that I have are on private land tending to be old farms grown back as the farms went under as has been stated the state land is mostly over harvested or to mature to be good habitat. Logging does disrupt them for a time but in 10-20 years provides great places for fisher . Properly managed forest can provide good habitat for all spiecies and is what our DEC should be doing with our forests. The season should be later than it is currently no earlier than Nov.15 to end on Dec31 fisher would be prime and of more value when talking with DEC was told the season started with other spiecies to help avoid having to release incidental catches of Fisher in sets for spiecies then ending when it does to avoid incidental Bobcat catches.With the later Bobcat season now we are going to have more incidental catches than before because of the more likelihood of fishers being suseptable to baits as food becomes harder to catch. Jim
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Dec 17, 2014 10:27:42 GMT -5
I just can not understand why the DEC biologists stubbornly oppose a later season, not only for fisher, but other species as well. Is it for their convenience? Is it for this recreational opportunity crap? Is it for the so called conflict with coon trapping and hunting? Is it politically based? At one time one of the furbearer biologists favored a later northern zone opener for all species on Nov.1, then in a later session completely reversed himself. I made my suggestion to point out that with some regulatory changes we could have both an early coon season as well as a sensible fisher season from mid November until the end of December. It can be done and it could be accomplished through the JOINT Trapping Initiative.Other states do it and so should we.
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Post by papabear on Dec 17, 2014 22:15:50 GMT -5
The biologist who gave a speech at our Houndsmen banquet last March told me this. He gave his speech on the fisher study and I asked him why the season closes so early. He said by the 10th snow should be on and gut piles and other stuff should be gone and would make them more vulnerable to catching them. Mr. Paintedpaw, Perhaps the above quote may shed some light. Couple that with the fact that our current fisher season is open during deer season, which leads to increased human activity in the woods. From my experience and notes, my fisher catch picks up after the southern zone deer gun season opens and hunters activities are less frequent in the north woods. I am convinced that fisher routines change during an open deer gun season! I too have often wondered what the DEC's logic is. My assumptions include.......I would think that more ECO's get assigned to patrolling and policing sportsmen during deer seasons and therefore having the bulk of trappers afield during the same time as deer hunters gives these ECO's better oppotunity to police and come into contact with a substaintialy larger number of sportsmen afield. They might figure that most trappers are going to be done by December 10th and far fewer will be out land trapping with footholds in the snow and cold. ....Or just maybe its DEC's crude attempt at fisher management by limiting opportunties to harvest fisher to a less than ideal season for trapping them. Whatever their reason, to me, it lacks merit and common sense as far as what constitutes the best and optimum ultilization of the available fisher resource........Regards
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Post by Lonny Mattison on Dec 18, 2014 5:19:51 GMT -5
The way I took it is they do not want the harvest numbers up. The reason of closing it the 10th.
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Post by papabear on Dec 18, 2014 20:52:41 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Lonny, It sure is hard to understand their reasoning. For the most part I have no hard feelings toward any of the DEC biolgist's I have talked with, but some times I get a sense their responses are whitewashed and they aren't completely forthcoming with all the information they have and should share with us trappers. Regards
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Post by alpom on Dec 18, 2014 21:56:15 GMT -5
Today DEC officer was in my house to seal my fishers he is saying lot more then usual fisher were trapped in Sullivan county this year. Looks like we have healthy population here.
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Post by papabear on Dec 23, 2014 22:20:01 GMT -5
Dear Friends, I have recieved several PM's requesting additional info pertaining to fisher trapping. For the most part, questions range from sets using footholds, lures, baits, habitat and preference for set locations and a host of others Im sure have been answered before but are commonly asked. It is my thinking that perhaps sharing this information on the open forum would be beneficial to more trappers and serve as a future reference to anyone interested.
In an attempt to provide a more complete and informative thread on the subject of Fisher trapping, I will post, pertaining information, to the limits of my experience and repectfully request that others who care to share, feel free to contribute as I know of at least a couple other good fisher trappers, besides Mr. Paintedpaw and Brother Brushwolf who frequent this forum.
Regards
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Post by Lonny Mattison on Dec 24, 2014 5:08:13 GMT -5
People should really try to watch one of your demos!
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Post by rendezvous on Dec 24, 2014 6:57:45 GMT -5
People should really try to watch one of your demos! X2! Mr. papabear, Thank you. I hope all is well and that you have a very Merry Christmas!
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Post by papabear on Dec 24, 2014 12:16:29 GMT -5
Dear Friends, In my begining years of trapping I used mainly foothold traps. As the years have passed I find myself almost exclusively using bodygrips for trapping fisher. The logic and reasoning is simpley that a dead fisher draws a whole lot less attention than a live one bouncing around. I primarily trap on state owned, public lands, therefore I try to limit (as best I can) the potential exposure to my set locations and catches to other trappers and hunters using these same lands.
Ground sets using foothold traps is a very effective way to trap fisher as well as any other furbearing critter that inhabibits the area and if it weren't for a handfull of shooting crazed whacko's I'd probablly use footholds at more locations just for the potential opportunities of catching these other critters.
The "Dirt/Bait Hole" set and variations of it is a great set for fisher. The set construction is the same basically as for canines with exception of using a small backing. For fisher I would highly reccommend using a large backing or no backing at all. A small backing works to a fishers natural instinct of climbing on it to aquire a vantange point and unless your bait hole is deep it is likely a fisher could hook out your bait and and run off with it. I would also suggest digging your bait/ lure holes as deep as possible to avoid the fisher getting your lure or bait before getting caught. Check any meat baits used in the hole often to make sure it doesnt start to mold. Fishers will eat some pretty rotten meat but not touch moldy meat. Food lures work very well at dirt hole sets and they seem to be intriqued by red fox gland lures. A call lure placed eye high on a nearby tree will draw them to the set area.
In the next post I will describe a non visable variation to use in areas of competition or where chances of hunters passing through is possible. Untill then...
Regards
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