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Post by saquelie on Dec 11, 2014 10:13:20 GMT -5
I would like to thank all for there knowledge and input on this thread.
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Post by papabear on Dec 11, 2014 16:23:44 GMT -5
Dear Mr Lonny, Not even close to my best years but definately not my worst. More importantly I learned and proved out a few things.
For a few years now I have wondered how well a fisher could smell and how long a lure/bait actually remains effective enough to entice the critter to work sets until caught. How much lure is just enough, how much is to much? Does over luring cause some fisher to balk and refuse to work sets? Do some fisher associate certain odors (natural or not natural in there environment) to be wary / shy of certain set situations?.....It is my opinion and belief that for the most part, fisher have a good sense of smell, perhaps not as good as a canine though. Personally, to some extent, i'm begining to think some fisher (especially those surviving a couple seasons of exposure to trapping situations) learn to be wary of traps, lures and certain type sets. Now by no means am I implying that fisher are highly intellegent, as I have cuaght a pile of them in untreated, undyed rusty looking traps. I have at times heavily lured sets with no detriment, having fisher plow through bodygrips to get at it. BUT, ITS THOSE FEW THAT KEEP ME WONDERING AND THINKING ABOUT IT!
This years test of using the flower pot set has proven out to me that it certainly has good use as a versitile set on my fisher lines. Its quick and easy to set up and is inexpensive to deploy in large numbers and is snow proof. It also makes complying with covered bait laws a cinch! I think the pot, to some extent provides a visual attraction. I wish I could take credit for this handy set but I got the idea from a New Hampshire fisher trapper named Alex Troy, I merely modified it and incorporated a bait /trap holder instead of cutting notches in the pot to hold the trap.
I am pleased with the results of the lures and baits I used. While salted fish is not what I consider my favorite bait for fisher, it held up well and produced results. The homemade, ground 4 meat bait worked well in combination with some sheeps wool. The "Plum Loco" from Mr Nightowl is in my mind a very good all purpose sweet smelling lure that if I had used it at more sets im sure would have produced more fisher and other critters. The "Cat Collector" wasnt really given a fair shot and I feel would have done better if I used it more, but theres always next year. There were no surprises from my "Klondike" concoction as I already know its effectiveness and will spare you from bragging on it. I chose to use it because it contains no skunk and I wanted to see how long it worked at actual sets without re luring.
In conclusion....During a normal fisher season I run 2~3 (overlapping) lines every other day with between 40 to 60 total locations, moving and rotating as fisher catches are made. During these seasons my catch averages range between 10~30% (1 to 3 fisher per 10 traps set). This year, however, because I cherry picked 17 reliable locations (money in the bank sets I call them) my catch percentage went up nicely considering the number of traps I initially set. Instead of moving traps to other locations, therefore extending my lines, I simpley pulled as fisher were caught.
I have proven to myself that a variety of simple sets and non traditional fisher lures and baits can be used with confidence and consistancy when deployed in good fisher habitat. However I am forming the opinion that a fishers nose is not as keen as canines and that a call lure (skunk) used the last couple weeks of season (especially if temps are below freezing) would most definately be beneficial.
After several years of observations at my sets I am nearly convinced that some fisher develop an awareness to the point of being wary of either traps, certain lure odors, set situations or a combination of the fore mentioned. Perhaps keeping human and trap, steel, odors to a bare minimum would prove benificial.
Unless a trapper puts his fisher sets in near the beginning and keeps sets in the entire season he may only get one shot at that individual fisher. My goal (using the 1 to 2 catches and pull practice) is to catch every fisher when it comes by my set, therefore I can harvest and move on to another spot. Until then I will continue my quest to find the magic combination.
Finally I am of the strong opinion that our current fisher trapping seasons are not set in the best interests of trappers. The season starts to early and runs concurrent with deer hunting seasons. In my opinion fisher trappers would be better served with a season that begins around Thanksgiving and closes near New Years. Fur quality would be at optimum and the distractions (hunter activites, gun shots, gut piles, wounded deer) would be at a minimum. But hey what do I know, lol
Regards
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Post by saquelie on Dec 11, 2014 16:42:08 GMT -5
X2 on a later season. From your lips to dec thank you Papa.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Dec 11, 2014 19:07:19 GMT -5
I am in strong agreement with Mr. Papabear and Mr. Saqueli regarding our fisher seasons.As a member of the JTI Committee I have argued with DEC for years for a later season, only to fall upon deaf ears. Virtually every serious fisher trapper that I know feels the same way.The St.Lawrence County study a few years back proved that a later season had no negative affect. Catching fisher on October 25 makes no sense, with poor, blue, unprime pelts a result. I hear crap about providing opportunity, but just as much opportunity could be provided with a later season. I worry that the upcoming Fisher Management Plan will provide a new open season for Central and Southern Tier trappers, but at the wrong time, like they did with the Bobcats. I don't set for mink on October 25 and I don't set for fisher until mid November. Mr. Papabear's proposal would be perfect. I also hear more nonsense from DEC about conflicts with coon seasons. Horsefeathers!!! The New England states run later fisher seasons, they have coons, so why can't we? It is high time that DEC come off of the "recreational opportunity" kick and recognize Fisher and all furbearers as a valuable, renewable resource and manage them as such and harvest them when they are at their best. I am particularly upset that DEC keeps patting themselves on the back for the fisher expansion into central and southern tier counties, bragging about their camera studies and DNA hair sampling. There is an article in this month's "Conservationist" about Fisher. A lot about fisher in the western counties, but I fail to see anything about the deterioration of the core Adirondack population. As we were told by one biologist, that population can " no longer sustain itself". Hiow can DEC explain that they have allowed things to reach this point??? I'm an old fart, but I still remember the days iof Gary Parsons, Mark Brown, and Gary Will when protection of that population was paramount. What has happened? I have my own theories. What will they do about it? I am far from a big time trapper and I don't put down huge numbers,but I have been trapping for 63 years. I take pride in the fur that I do catch. I love trapping in the remote areas of the Adirondacks. I had a biologist get mad at me at the last NYSTA Director's meeting for asking if any consideration is given to fur primeness when they sey seasons. A reasonable question in my opinion.Sadly I feel that the best days of trapping are behind me.
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Post by Dave Morse on Dec 11, 2014 19:56:00 GMT -5
I have done a few vacation fisher lines in the dacks, I tried poles, cubbies, buckets. All my fisher came from what I consider big woods coon locations and traditional dirt holes. One of my best spots was high up on razorbacks that leed down to the rivers as well as steep banks along the river that funneled their travel.also found they ran the old stone walls where I could find them. I used peanut oil, with pure quill droppped in along with beaver meet. I hiked 10 plus miles into the wilderness to trap but saw fisher on the roads just on the edge of towns.
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Post by brandonh on Dec 11, 2014 20:07:49 GMT -5
Lots and lots of good information on this thread.. I appreciate Bob sharing his information from this season. I totally concur that the fisher season dates are poorly planned. I would love to be able to run a fisher line until New Years Day, as this is such a great time to be in the woods
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Post by kirkwooder on Dec 11, 2014 20:38:47 GMT -5
Mr paintedpaw,
In what way does the DEC claim that trapping coon would interfere with fisher trapping? Are they suggesting running a season separate from coon season? I have never trapped for fisher, but would assume that many could be taken in coon sets, if the populations were dense enough in the same areas. I have a few areas that I trap that I believe hold fishers, although in very limited numbers. I have seen what I believe to be fisher sign in these areas, and immediately pulled all my sets in that area. I would love to have a sustainable breeding population here in the Western Finger Lakes area and feel that every fisher here now is vital to that end. I am truly looking forward to an open trapping season for them here, however I don't believe that I would ever want to give up on trapping coon. Now having said that, I also believe that the Oct. 25 opener for fox/coon/coyote here in the west is about 2 weeks too early. The big old boar coon, and most large sows are just prime the opening week, however, any that are not as large don't seem to prime up until at least 2 weeks later. I even shot one Sat. night that was still quite "slatey", some might even say it was blue.
Would it not be wise for, not only the sport, but the fur bearers as well, to hold the opening of the season a couple of weeks? I believe that most who involve themselves in the sport of trapping would pursue the sport no matter the season opening date.
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Post by papabear on Dec 11, 2014 20:47:49 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Paintpaw, My thoughts exactly to the word!!!!!
"It is high time that DEC come off of the "recreational opportunity" kick and recognize Fisher and all furbearers as a valuable, renewable resource and manage them as such and harvest them when they are at their best"......this statement should also apply to the trees of the "State Land" forests.
Friend , I spoke with the biologists at the NYSTA convention last fall. Mainly about that bogus Cornell survey, but also about my concerns about dwindling habitat and fisher populations in the Adirondacks. He was sort of polite but he was also full of himself, and I could surely tell he was uncomfortable with my version of facts in rebuttal to his whitewashed, establishment prepared answers. His polite responces quickly turned to the I'm the expert and your not attitude. Well, I certainly admit I am no expert by any means but I have been hunting, trapping and cruising the southern 'Dacks since before he was a twinkle in his daddy's eye.
Mr. Paintpaw, At times I sit and wonder (and chuckle to myself) what these same DEC folks would think should you and I appear together at one of their meetings. While Im sure they would find little use for our common sense approach and ideas, still, I would take great satisfaction in knowing that we sure as hell ENLIGHTENED them!
Regards
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Post by kirkwooder on Dec 11, 2014 20:51:02 GMT -5
Could you please get that on video if it ever comes to pass? It would surely go viral on Utube.
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Post by slyfox74 on Dec 11, 2014 21:25:04 GMT -5
Very good information here. Thank you Papabear and Paintedpaw. Any chance of finding a description of that flowerpot set?
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Post by Lonny Mattison on Dec 12, 2014 4:18:09 GMT -5
I was told that a later fisher season would hurt. Was told it would be easier to catch them later in the winter and with their breeding cycle would hurt.
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Post by saquelie on Dec 12, 2014 9:35:39 GMT -5
Lonny its my understanding that a fisher gets bred soon after giving birth in the spring and gives birth the following spring. So it wouldn't really matter if we caught them in nov or dec. I could be wrong maybe someone could further explain. Second year a goose egg for me with a short line out back.
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Post by papabear on Dec 12, 2014 9:52:02 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Lonny, whoever told you that is either misleading you or dont know what they are talking about! Here are some facts.
While I may agree that fisher might be a bit more susceptable to bait during a later season, especially after there is a period of time they cannot hunt due to immobility (usually caused by deep fluffy snow), but in the real world fishers are quite efficient hunters and are just as likely to catch a rabbit, grouse, squirrel, or other prey critter as they are to climb a pole to chew on a hard frozen piece of meat. One must not confuse the fact that fisher are opportunist's and also greedy by nature with the idea that if a trapper sets out a bait that every fisher in the country will come running to get it. Also a late November thru late December season would most likely mean more snow which could in effect cut down the number of days a fisher would be able to move around and hunt. 8 ~ 12" of fluffy snow greatly hinders a fishers ability to travel! Add to that a few days of 1~2" accumulations on top may render a fisher immobile for a week or more. Now if one were to figure in the number of days a fisher could actually travel/hunt during the time frame of Thanksgiving to New Years, one would realize that the number of opportunities to actually have fisher come into contact with a trappers sets is cut down. How then, could that be considered detrimental to the fisher population?
Fisher breed/mate and bear their young sometime in late March into early April. After a female fisher is bred what occurs is a delayed implantation, which simpley means the fertilized embryo's (baby fisher eggs) do not immediately implant in the uterus and remains dormant (about 10 months in female fisher). The blastocyst's (fertilized embryo's) attaches to the uterus wall in mid february and if all goes well baby fishers are born about 50 days later.......So there is no logic to substantiate a disruption in the fishers breeding cycle
Regards
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Post by Lonny Mattison on Dec 12, 2014 10:00:53 GMT -5
The biologist who gave a speech at our Houndsmen banquet last March told me this. He gave his speech on the fisher study and I asked him why the season closes so early. He said by the 10th snow should be on and gut piles and other stuff should be gone and would make them more vulnerable to catching them.
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Post by brushwolf64 on Dec 12, 2014 10:50:13 GMT -5
I agree it could make some of them more vulnerable to a point but that same snow/cold etc.will affect how far one would be willing to travel and to set/tend traps in any given day. I don't think it would have any great impact in my opinion.As far as breeding goes as Bob said that is done in March/April. The snowfall depths and cold weather have the greatest influence on breeding and mortality of fisher pups. The female needs to breed after giving birth. She will leave her pups to find a male,breed and then return to her pups. Heavy snows hamper travel and cold weather can cause the pups to die if she cant get back to them in time to warm them. That's what was explained to me by a well respected biologist that was instrumental in the restocking of fisher here in the Catskills. In my area we have a decent density of fisher so the percentage of fisher successfully breeding and rearing pups would expected to be higher.I don't see how a later trapping season would cause any problems with breeding season myself.
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Post by papabear on Dec 12, 2014 11:31:28 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Lonny, So from what he told you we are to understand this...DEC allows trappers to utilize the fisher resource but they dont actually want us to catch them!.......I'd like to know how many they live trap and barter off to other states......Is it merely because they have more ECO's patrolling during deer season and figure they can keep a better eye on us? .....Or perhaps its because they are FULLY aware of the dwindling habitat situation and lack of proper management of the Adirondack Parks State Forests and their reluctance to stand up and do whats right and start confronting and dealing with these issues.
Its long past due for the DEC top brass to stop being lead around by nose by the A.P.A. and like minded "tree hugging" factions. They need to start listening to the biologists and forest dept. folks and incorporate the important, key management ideas they present. And by all means stop with the BULLSHIT whitewhash establishment spin that they force the biologists to spew out to us trappers, hunters and fishermen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Regards
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Post by brushwolf64 on Dec 12, 2014 11:38:17 GMT -5
Politics and wildlife management don't work!! Never have and never will.
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Post by papabear on Dec 12, 2014 11:43:57 GMT -5
Brother Brushwolf, I totally agree with that statement, my friend! Regards
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Post by Lonny Mattison on Dec 12, 2014 12:59:12 GMT -5
I agree with you fellas. Never understood why it closed then. Had to ask because I always figured the trapping was getting good by the time it closes.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Dec 12, 2014 13:04:37 GMT -5
In fairness I must say that some of the DEC biologists I have met are dedicated individuals and a couple actually trap. It appears to me that politics rules the day; dedicated or not.What burns my butt is the condescending attitude I get from some of the DEC people. The fact remains that trappers out in the field observe far more than they give us credit for, and most every trapper I know is not some uneducated country hay seed!Mr.Papabears posts are certainly testimony to that. To answer Mr. Kirkwooder's question regarding racoon interfering with fisher season let me say that I do not wish to start a war with the Houndsmen. They are our allies and I want to keep it that way. That said, there some houndsmen and some trappers that want a yet earlier season than Oct.25. They don't give a d@mn about primeness and I'm not talking about everyone and not just coons. but DEC does listen to them. Also I understand that there is a large coon population in St.Lawrence County and there are concerns about rabies. This is a wild idea, but let me throw it out there: If DEC is so set on that Oct.25 opening date than let's change the regs so that no conibears may be used on land until Nov.15 and any live caught fisher must be released. Also institute an accidental catch policy which DEC refuses to do. Also get rid of that ban on conibears after DEC.10 because someone might catch a pine marten.Certainly the coon trappers have the dog proof tools to take coons without using conibears. I know some will scream at this proposal, but it would allow those that want to trap coons or coyotes early without killing early fisher.
By their own testimony to the St.Lawrence County study a later season has NO negative affects. Mr.PapaBear makes some very valid points regarding that. Although the season is now closed, snow conditions in my county (Warren) are presently as such that the fisher are holed up. I am also very concerned about the deterioation of the central and eastern Adirondack core populations. Do we now need to live trap Catskill fisher and restock the Adirondacks??? Why, oh why did DEC allow this to happen? Was someone asleep at the switch; or is it due to an over mature forest, not properly managed, so that they can politically appease the Environmentalists, even against the word of their own professional foresters?
I believe in Conservation of our natural resources and wise use based upon sound science. Harvesting furbearers when they are not prime plays into the anti's arguments that we are merely killing for the sake of killing. Too bad DEC can't see that.
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Post by Lonny Mattison on Dec 12, 2014 13:06:36 GMT -5
I do not remember the fellas name who gave the speech. Herm or Von would know.
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Post by saquelie on Dec 12, 2014 13:13:33 GMT -5
Lonny I pulled my fisher sets Monday, and boy glad I did. Me and Yeller just got back from trudging thru knee high snow to dig out two yote traps. Its only about a thousand yards but pretty much done me in. Just couldn't imagine having to have had to check my fisher line if they were still in. No way my wheeler would have made it. As much as I would love to see the season extended, I know I would of been in trouble today.
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Post by Lonny Mattison on Dec 12, 2014 13:15:56 GMT -5
Randy, I wish I could run a nice fisher line thru the woods. All my sets need to be close to the road so I am not late to work..lol
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Post by papabear on Dec 12, 2014 17:11:26 GMT -5
Dear Friends, A friend and I took a ride to Indian Lake on Wednesday looking for places on state land to hunt snowshoe hare. I saw a total of 9 deer. Every single one of those deer were along the fringe of the Park on private, posted property that had good cover and habitat to sustain them. Not one single deer did we see nor did we locate any sizable amount of good hare cover to hunt on the state's "see thru forever" wild forests.
There is no way that the powers to be at DEC dont know about the declining habitat and overly maturing forest issues! They CHOOSE to see thru rose colored glasses, and turn a deaf ear towards us and in favor of the big money backed environmentalist factions wants, wishes and policies. And God help us all should there ever comes a day that sporting license revenue drops to a point that the state deems unsustainable and they must subsidize to keep hunting, fishing and trapping seasons open. They will surely shut it down under the roose of fiscal responsibility..... Think it cant happen...Just remember it wasn't too long ago they shut down a bunch of State campgrounds.
Regards
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Post by kirkwooder on Dec 12, 2014 21:21:01 GMT -5
I am both a houndsman and a trapper. I can see no issue with a later season for either fisher or coon, weather it be with steal or with the hound. I certainly understand that weather can come up and make running the trap line or the hound somewhat difficult. If we didn't have to step aside for the orange hoard for nearly a month out of the season every year, there might not be such a conflict with other houndsmen. Five weeks of bow season and then 4 weeks of gun season fills the woods with the worst of the worst of those who spend their free time afield. It seems to me that something different could be done on that front as well.
It also seems to me that some sort of management practice could be arranged, in regard with the forest preserve, that would both preserve some of the old growth forest and manage areas for wildlife habitat. The tree huggers think that those old growth stands of timber are the utopia for all woods dwelling creatures, when in all actuality they are closer to deserts than any thing else. Devoid of what most species need in their world to survive.
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