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Post by brushwolf64 on May 6, 2014 8:42:22 GMT -5
Papabear is 100% correct imo.What good is any info we give the biologist if there hands are tied and cant use it. They already KNOW the problem. Its biology 101.No food,no fisher, They cant fix the problem due to political and economic constraints.So they ask a loaded question with 4 possibilities none of which will fix the problem. Our wildlife management is controlled by political motives and is not structured to benefit the land,wildlife etc.Politics and wildlife management don't work in truth. Never have and never will imo.
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Post by silverfox on May 6, 2014 14:42:55 GMT -5
i guess im not putting 2 and 2 together, if the state biologists and DEC know that fisher populations state wide are not decreasing, that its in fact a case of the Adirondack resident fisher population "relocating" to a suitable food source and habitat, (due to habitat degradation within the adirondacks), but the "political powers that be" dont want to hear what the real problem is or a real solution, or have "tied the hands" of our wildlife managers, then why would any biologist, wildlife Manager, or DEC affiliates (all "educated" on proper wildlife management and most genuinely concerned for the welfare of the wildlife)even push forward with a potential "remedy" (the 4 choices)that in fact will have absolutely no effect or remotely rectify the real issues, not to mention the time, money and resources wasted to "appease" the political agenda (i am very familiar with the gap between politics and common sense, and the "dont ask why just do it" associated with state and federal agencies, but at the end of the day there HAS TO BE A VOICE OF REASON that throws down the WTF card) and ive also witnessed the "yessir" mentality, no matter how detrimental the "request" is just to "preserve" ones career (not saying thats the case here but something isnt adding up based on whats happening "on the ground" and whats being "briefed" in Albany) otherwise this entire fiasco makes no sense (unless theres a hidden agenda that someone is reaping the benefits from regardless of the damage it will cause)i have tried to research overall fisher population data across the state and theres nothing i can find showing overall state wide decrease in their populations, just a shift in density which as stated is biology 101.....
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Post by papabear on May 7, 2014 7:47:00 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Silverfox, The 4 "remedies" offered will not do anything to promote the population of fisher to recover in the "Forever Wild" areas. Without addressing the issue of continuing, degrading of the habitat the 4 choices are pointless. Once one of these "remedies" is enacted it has no chance to be rescinded because wildlife is not going to live where this is no food. All future studies will continue to show declining and poor populations causing stricter regulation to the point of season closures. Once closed it will be "Forever Wild, Forever Closed".
I'm sure that some of the biologists, forest rangers Dec staff have shared their views and opinions regarding the degradation of wildlife habitats and overall health of the forests with the people at the top. Just seems that the information and ideas don't receive top priority or perhaps is simply dismissed by the APA Preservationists Oligarchy.
As for motive, I can only speculate, but ponder this thought; remember last year when the governor was revamping the sportsmens licenses, and wanted to do away with the individual trapping licence and bury it into a hunting licence? Just imagine 4500 deer hunters being sent this survey on our behalf! Need I say more on motive.
Regards
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Post by herm on May 7, 2014 8:11:53 GMT -5
On top of all of the above, now throw in the fact that in much of the western part of the state deer hunters with their posting and contol of access to the lands are managing our furbearers more so than trappers actually are.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on May 7, 2014 8:56:08 GMT -5
Of the options given in question # 7 how can they impement any of them and call it management? ?
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Post by silverfox on May 8, 2014 4:59:15 GMT -5
Papabear, that was my point basically, why would any "wildlife manager" even initiate such an in effective management practice knowing full well it has no real effect on the issue at hand, and if its not a "priority" then again why would they even mention this knowing its ineffectiveness, so my point (was probably too suttle)was there has to be a hidden agenda that has nothing to do with fisher population or management period
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Post by walleyed on May 8, 2014 18:13:56 GMT -5
Well Fellow Trappers,
At Noon-Thirty, walleyed sat down at his desk, gritted his teeth, and held his plugged nose, and completed the Cornell University administered NYS DEC Trappers Survey, sealed the envelope, and deposited it into his Mailbox, and erected the red flag signaling outgoing mail.
It's all in the hands of the U.S.P.S mail carrier, Cornell, and Our Illustrious DEC Fur-Bearer Biologists at this point.
Here's hoping that when Everything Shakes Out, We Trappers do not lose any more ground in our on-going battle to maintain our RIGHT to Trap and Keep alive Our Heritage here in New York State.
Am I the only one who filled out the survey including The Now Infamous Question #7 ?
walleyed
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on May 10, 2014 10:28:11 GMT -5
No food=no fishers. Where I am at, fishers look to be tripping over each other. Lots of fisher food. I may get in trouble for this, but... I don't trust ANYTHING question the DEC asks. And I pretty much don't trust them period!! I think they are so top heavy ie; loaded down with people to administrate policies they know nothing about and that don't listen to those who know what is going on. They just concerned about #s. As in "We just added another 1500 acres to our beautiful ADK preserve for all NYers to enjoy (just not hunters/trappers or fishermen/women)". No clue on deer management. Somethings I will never forget: Remember when the DEC INSISTED that coyotes don't target deer as food? They only take the sick and weak? Or when I called the DEC back roughly in 2002 to ask about breeding bears in Rensselaer County. I was told in no uncertain words that there were NO breeding bears in the county and all we had were juvenile males wandering through after "escaping" ( ) from Massachusetts. After I said "Oh really? Then how do you explain the sow and 2 cubs I just saw go thru my back yard then?".. Silence. Now we have a bear season.... If they truly cared about critter populations in the ADKs they would manage the land for them. It has been said many times, "Forever Wild = Forever Dead". The easiest route for them to take is to close/shorten/add a quota or a limit to the season. Then they can say "Look what we did!! Give us more money" Same as politicians passing a gun control bill whenever there is a shooting instead of addressing the real problem.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on May 10, 2014 16:05:49 GMT -5
When they talk about "for all New Yorkers to enjoy". they are talking about the Big Lie. The truth is that the state is acquiring more and more lands in the Adirondacks,classifying most of them as wilderness and in reality denying the use and enjoyment to most of the public.Only the young and most physically fit can get to see or use these lands. I get particularly upset when the state closes or destroys existing infra structure.Roads in existance for well over one hundred years have been closed. Existing buildings and their facilities have been burned to the ground; all to meet the conditions they set forth to meet the "Wilderness Classification". The State has another agency, The Adirondack Park Agency, which is another puppet of the Preservationist Groups. This agency is hated within the park for it's very restrictive land use policies. A lot of the park has no cell phone reception because of the restrictions against cell phones and windmills within the park. One tower that was erected on the east side of Lake George had to be camoflaged to look like a pine tree. We locals call it Frankenpine. In another situation a car went off of the Adirondack Northway and over a bank out of sight and the man died because their was no cell phone service. What stupidity! All to meet the demands of some environmental jackasses. Apparently they know nothing of conservation, nor do they care. As far as wildlife goes things just keep getting worse. Just in my lifetime I have witnessed so many of the old clearings and homesteads grown completely back up and revert to forest. Blowdowns happen periodically and yet the state can not salvage the lumber. Campgrounds have been closed, while at the same time the state keeps buying more and more land. I have watched deer standing on their hind legs reaching as high as they can to find food in mid winter.I Have seen those same deer dead in the yards in the spring. No food, no wildlife. The fact is that it is a no win situation. I'm all for protection of the park from the developers, but it is a disgrace that the lands are not properly maintained or properly managed for wildlife, timber, and real public use and enjoyment. This matter with Fisher is only the beginning. Things will only get worse under the present policies. The biologists don't like to hear it, but "Forever Wild, Forever Dead". Shame, shame on the Governor, the legislature, DEC, APA, and all that promote this kind of mismanagement.
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Post by walleyed on May 20, 2014 8:40:37 GMT -5
Friday, walleyed Received a second follow-up letter from Cornell urging me to complete the survey, and return it.
They included with follow-up letter another duplicate survey and post-paid envelope to fill out and return.
Compiling the Trap days afield, and average numbers of traps each day for both water trapping and land trapping was kind of a pain in the backside the first time.
Since I have already completed one survey, what do they hope to gain from a second survey ?
I guess I will re-iterate my choices for question Number #7 and send it in again although this will undoubtedly SKEW (screw) the data reliability.
Anybody else receive a second survey and post-paid envelope in the mail from Cornell ?
w
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Post by trappermac on May 20, 2014 8:54:34 GMT -5
I would guess that they only want you to fill this out if you haven't already completed the original one sent to you.
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Post by 2labs on May 20, 2014 9:01:25 GMT -5
I had my 2nd one in mail last week also,have not touched it yet.
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Post by mb650 on May 22, 2014 16:42:47 GMT -5
I had to laugh today . I got my 3rd survey in the mail today. Reading all that was wrote about this (survey) I was a little leery on answering the questions . I agree with walleyed on this one . It's one more thing I don't want Albany or congressman to control is my livelihood of trapping. I fill it out anyways truthfully. It's probably a crybaby bow hunter behind these surveys sorry had to say it.
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Post by papabear on May 23, 2014 12:27:40 GMT -5
Dear Friends, Just got off the phone with Bill Siemer of Cornell University.....explained my concerns and then was directed to contact Mike Schiavone of DEC. His contact info is phone (518) 402-8886 or email ...mvschiav@ gw.dec.state.ny.us.......Regards
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Post by walleyed on May 23, 2014 14:56:36 GMT -5
I had to laugh today . I got my 3rd survey in the mail today. Reading all that was wrote about this (survey) I was a little leery on answering the questions . I agree with walleyed on this one . It's one more thing I don't want Albany or congressman to control is my livelihood of trapping. I fill it out anyways truthfully. It's probably a crybaby bow hunter behind these surveys sorry had to say it. I too received my Third Letter from Cornell University Research Associate William Siemer Today urging me to complete my survey and send it in. Mind you now, that I have already completed and mailed two surveys with exactly the same responses to all the questions. When and if They mail walleyed a third survey, I will complete and send that one as well. Despite whatever they learn from these surveys, The DEC Bureau of Wildlife Furbearer Biologists will do exactly what is Politically Expedient, and Do Only Their Political Master's Bidding in Albany. You can not fault The Bureau of Wildlife Biologists for trying to keep their Jobs. w
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Post by papabear on May 23, 2014 17:05:15 GMT -5
Dear Friends, I assure you after a lengthy and detailed conversation, Mr Siemer is fully aware of what I (and some of you guys)think of the loaded and questionable responses pertaining to question #7. I also invited him to visit this forum for more input. He seems like a reasonable fella but was quick to reccomend that I call Mike Schiavone of DEC.. I called him and left a message to call me. So far no response. Regards
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Post by slyfox74 on Jun 1, 2014 18:46:27 GMT -5
I completely misinterpreted that question as being vaguely directed towards the declining muskrat population. I had no idea that the fisher population was that much of a concern. It seems fairly simple to understand. There are plenty of Fishers where the never was Fishers before. There are few Fishers in the traditional Fisher areas, I'm no biologist but it seems like a species migration or relocation. The Adirondacks no longer can sustain their population because there is no more food. Due in part to the ban on logging. It's all old dead forest. The Fishers moved to richer hunting grounds. I thought everyone understood that to be true. I seriously thought that question was aimed at muskrat trappers. I attached a written note stating that none of the choices given were acceptable, and The NYS DEC needs to devise a different way to manage the population of the declining animal in question.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Jun 2, 2014 10:28:15 GMT -5
Trappers need to be very, very careful how they answer the questions on the survey. They can very easily twisted or misinterpreted. I have seen that happen in the past. Regarding the decline of fisher in the core central and eastern Adirondacks quotas are a poor tool for the biologists to use which can so easily be abused. They certainly can not be termed management.NYSTA and JTI oppose quotas and with good reason. If DEC is allowed to implement question #7 what will be next, muskrats, otter,beaver ? Sounds a lot to me that the "management" would be of trappers and not the species! If any of the possibilities that have been mentioned are implemented I would ask why trappers are being punished for the inability of DEC to properly manage this species.If quotas are brought into play my wife, children, grandchildren, and other relatives all will be getting trapping licenses. The truth is that the biologists have very few options open to them abd every one of those options will only impede trappers!
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Post by stewa107 on Jun 3, 2014 8:28:04 GMT -5
In the area I trap I'm seeing a fair amount of fisher sign and this past season is the first in which I actually saw any on the road and I saw 1 male and a female with 2 babies. Fisher experience population swings much like bobcat but it is a longer cycle. However, even with the cycle it only stands to reason that, like all animals, they are migrating to food sources. I would venture to say another factor in the declining catches is the later winters we are having. Fisher are omnivorous and the lady several years have seen very good mast out there for feed and that has come right from DEC in Raybrook. I do not target fisher until mid November at the earliest. Personally I would agree with a later season possibly starting the first of December running into January. I am much more concerned with the muskrat decline which is being experienced throughout their range and not just in any local pockets
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Jun 3, 2014 9:38:21 GMT -5
The decline in muskrats is yet another species to be very concerned about. This decline is not confined to just New York state.I can remember catching hundreds of tide water rats when I was a kid. Also not that long ago marshes along Lake Champlain were rented out for muskrat trapping. No more.I, for one think this is an environmental warning.
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Post by papabear on Feb 28, 2015 10:34:58 GMT -5
Dear Friends, Here you go Mr. Rockwood. Regards
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traps82
#3 Newhouse
Hope is always alive
Posts: 3,208
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Post by traps82 on Feb 28, 2015 12:19:50 GMT -5
Re-read it all..... So did our fears on this subject turn out to be founded??? Hmmmmmmmm
TY Papabear for finding this
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Feb 28, 2015 17:31:53 GMT -5
in the eyes of a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Fisher don't even cross my mind... a general question like this can be leverage to use against trapping for ANY species. Such as muskrats, which immediately come to mind. if I get said survey in the mail, I will x-out all four choices and write in, "spend money from the DEC coffers on habitat improvement that Cuomo said was in excess balance. He proposed license fee reductions in part because there was excess money in reserves already. Sounds good... now get busy spending that on habitat improvements across state WMAs and ALL OTHER PUBLIC LANDS thru the entire state for benefit of all furbearers and incidental wildlife alike" that will be my written response, verbatim as I said, and as I did exactly as I said...
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Post by mrlongbeard1 on Mar 3, 2015 0:58:20 GMT -5
I have the utmost respect for all biologists and all econ officers out there. In my experience they are all real good people just like us and in most cases sympathetic to us. Nor do I fault anyone for measures taken to preserve their job which in today's modern time is a very precious thing to have. But whoever dictates policy to manage wildlife, wherever such "political pressure" comes from needs to be told straight-up and matter of fact how it is. If there is a perceived population problem with fisher or any other species, the core problem is habitat degradation. By mismanaging said habitat, the powers that be have already made their management decision. If indeed the ability to manage habitat is outside of the decision-maker's control, then they need to pressure the people whose control that management power is actually in. And most importantly, when we the people are steered towards such pigeon-hole terms as this thread discusses, we need to step out of that box entirely. There is no good answer to question #7 offered us on this survey. They all suck, they are all ineffective and all detrimental to trapping. The only real answer is to fix the problem, and the problem is habitat loss. So that is the only suitable answer for reply. The whole genre' of compliance and settlement in this country needs to end. NYS should have oodles of fisher in the core areas as it did historically. If they are no longer present, why not? Attack that problem head on, and fix it. There's the singular mantra for "powers that be" to hear, no matter how many political levels up it must be shouted thru. As John stated. Population beyond capacity degrade habitat.The real problem is to dam many people. Over population= degraded habitat
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Mar 3, 2015 6:18:39 GMT -5
when I complete my fisher management commentary feedback this week, I will surely mention this "survey" as steering for desired-outcome answers and flawed by nature. A survey is supposed to collect opinions... not manufacture them.
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