paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on May 1, 2014 12:14:51 GMT -5
Here is a question; As the acquires more and more former paper company lands why do they have to be incorporated into the forest preserve? Why could they simply be termed state land parcels like they have in other regions of the state? I know that such parcels do exist within the Forest Preserve Blue Line and cutting of trees was permitted. Is it that the environmental preservationists have such a strangle hold politically on the polticians that they automatically go into the forever wild lands? Certainly DEC is failing in it's stewardship of these lands by locking them up and failing to perform proper forest management. It truly shows the true selfish colors of the preservationists. Mr. Papa Bear you are one intelligent trapper! Your opinions make a Hell of a lot of sense and you have affected my thinking regarding this fiasco. Your comment about the APA is most appreciated.I truly am beginning to believe as you said that none of the four options in question # 7 is appropriate. Thank you for your wisdom.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on May 1, 2014 15:24:49 GMT -5
I truly am beginning to believe as you said that none of the four options in question # 7 is appropriate. Thank you for your wisdom. beginning to believe, Al? took me about 45 seconds to reach that conclusion! <lol>
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on May 1, 2014 16:54:16 GMT -5
Please forgive me Austin. I guess I've been aging in the hills a tad too long. Sorry that I'm not as smart as you. Takes me a bit longer to assimilate all of the information. Up here a feller's entitled to change his mind and up here the younguns learn to respect their elders.
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Post by herm on May 1, 2014 19:35:35 GMT -5
The state foresters outside the great preserve do not manage the forest for wildlife. They manage the woods for timber under substaned yeild. They mark every den tree they find to be cut down or gurdled. The fact that a wooods that is logged supports more wildlife than a forever wild mature forest is something that just happens by nature and not so much by the state foresters.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on May 1, 2014 22:58:17 GMT -5
Please forgive me Austin. I guess I've been aging in the hills a tad too long. Sorry that I'm not as smart as you. Takes me a bit longer to assimilate all of the information. Up here a feller's entitled to change his mind and up here the younguns learn to respect their elders. Al, I have the utmost respect for you... when you were first active in trappers associations, I was still peeing in my diapers. But what of any four choices offered in that questionnaire seemed beneficial to trappers and trapping in NY or elsewhere? If they handed that proposal to you at a JTI meeting and asked for immediate feedback, what would be your reply? Of all people here I would have expected you to protest this one immediately without question, as I did upon reading walleyed's intro. That's all I meant by it, no personal offense. Just puzzled that you did not react with instant dismissal of the choices pigeonholed to NYS trappers. Nothing more was meant than that
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2014 6:06:46 GMT -5
I truly am beginning to believe as you said that none of the four options in question # 7 is appropriate. Thank you for your wisdom. beginning to believe, Al? took me about 45 seconds to reach that conclusion! <lol> Hey Austin, I think it would help to elevate your standing in most of the forums you participate in if you weren't such a condescending wise guy every time you post. Might even learn a few things you don't already know? If that is possible.
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on May 2, 2014 6:37:38 GMT -5
Hey Austin, I think it would help to elevate your standing in most of the forums you participate in if you weren't such a condescending wise guy every time you post. Might even learn a few things you don't already know? If that is possible. well, it's like this. The 8th and 10th posts in this thread were the first ones to clearly state this question #7 saga is crap, no answers are valid and "habitat loss" is the only viable reply. Sometime later on, papabear and others chimed in with the same repeated thoughts after me. So then I see where Al states that papabear's repeat of what I said swayed his view. I am simply wondering what other view there could have possibly been than what I first stated and others agreed to afterwards. I've known Al for at least 25 years now and probably more. So my post to him was not some random internet stranger one-offing another stranger, as I've had done to me by random aliases here in the past. That Al might have taken offense to it was not expected... the context was totally from a position of one longtime friend chiding another in good humor. Nobody else was part of our exchange, including you. As for learning things here? What's there to learn in this thread that I don't already know? The question #7 as stated is a potential trap, I said it first and others agreed. Am I missing something in the timeline of facts there? If so please correct me and I'll note the mistake.
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Post by johnrockwood on May 2, 2014 8:05:39 GMT -5
I agree there are no good answers presented for question #7 and that of those listed, none are in our best interest. However, please remember that only a few trappers in NY, out of the thousands that receive this survey, will be reading this thread. The vast majority responding will remain uninformed as to the potential long reaching effects of their answers. If every trapper who received this survey refused to answer question #7 and stated that NONE of the answers were in the best interests of trappers nor in the best interest of proper wildlife management, the idea of not answering the question at all to prove a point would be legitimate. HOWEVER, that is not the case. Several thousand trappers, unaware of the "trap" as Austin termed it, WILL answer this question and the Department WILL utilize that information to help make their decisions on how to address the decline in the fisher harvest in the Adirondacks. Because the questionnaire will be read by a machine, there is no way one can qualify your answers directly on the questionnaire and have those qualifying statements acknowledged. You can write comments on a separate piece of paper, but that will not effectively qualify your answers either. If you don't answer the question, you are subject to the results based on answers by the uninformed. This appears to be a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
Several members of the DEC's Furbearer Management Team are also trappers. I'm sure they are reading this thread. I know they have to make a decision soon and finalize their draft management plan for fisher this summer. They do have another option - change nothing. If the correlation between a decreasing harvest of fisher in the Adirondacks and a declining overall population in the Adirondacks is indeed correct, would doing nothing be the correct thing? They have stated that the ONLY part of this entire equation they (DEC) have control over is harvest by trappers. Politics governs habitat and access. It will take an act of God to make changes there. I am hoping that the FMT will meet with the JTI Committee to discuss their finalizing of the draft plan before it goes to the State Register for comment. I hope the FMT thinks long and hard about the far reaching implications of their final management choices. Once instituted, it nearly takes an act of God to make changes on those, too. I do have considerable faith in the present FMT members, however, no one ever knows who may succeed these folks as their careers advance. Their successors may not be as trapper friendly and positive changes could then become impossible to make.
I have been informed that 10 year management plans are, in fact, being discussed. I've been told that that only means the Department will be required to re-evaluate the plans every 10 years, but that if changes are deemed necessary at any point during the 10 year period they have the ability to do so.
There is a way that you, as an informed trapper affected by any upcoming changes in regulations regarding fisher trapping, can make your views and perspectives heard. The DEC Furbearer Management Team has requested pre-draft comments regarding the fisher management plan to be sent to this email address: fwwildlf@gw.dec.state.ny.us and ask that you put "fisher" in the subject line to assure it reaches the proper desk(s). I ask that you all take advantage of this opportunity as these comments should carry more weight than the survey results.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on May 2, 2014 8:34:34 GMT -5
Allow me to explain again. At the JTI meeting and again at the BOD meeting DEC never revealed any of the four possibilities listed in the survey and they did not reveal that they knew the survey was coming out. All that they told us was that there would be regulatory changes and that the final draft would be coming out in late summer. We could only guess what those regulatory changes would be, and remember past comments from those biologists. We had no idea that they were waiting for the results of their survey. They have invited trapper comments prior to finalizing the draft. Based upon the choices that we could only guess at that time , I felt the best choice of the four was to shorten the season. My thinking was that trappers would still have opportunity to catch fisher and the fisher they caught would be of 100% better quality. The vast majority of northern zone fisher trappers and fur buyers have been pleading for a later, more sensible season for years, only to fall upon the deaf ears of DEC.The Cornell survey only confirmed what we already suspected and shows their true colors. Why were fisher never mentioned in question #7? Could that question be used against us in the future for quotas on otter, beaver, or even muskrats? We need to look at the larger picture! The only satisfactory answer to a declining Adirondack fisher population is to manage the habitat and provide better access for trappers. Those things will not happen, given the "Forever Wild" clause in the state constitution. That in my opinion is the best answer. Another would be to leave the season as is and do nothing, accepting the fact that the fisher are migrating to the periphery and into the farm lands where there is food. Given all of this and the promise by DEC that regulatory changes are going to happen, what to do? The JTI is concerned with the welfare of the species. We also must consider the best interests of the trappers we represent.The shameful performance of the DEC regarding the Otter closures has given us d@mn good reason to be very wary. We can not allow a repeat of that dismal failure with fisher. We can not allow a closure or shorter season without a sunset clause which DEC refuses to do. NYSTA is totally against a quota which is a very strong possibility. So there you have it.It is a complex issue with no easy answers that would be practicle. I do feel that there are no satisfactory solutions offered by DEC. Of the four possibilities offered by them shortening the season is the best choice, but as I think about it,it really will do nothing to increase the population.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2014 8:51:21 GMT -5
As for learning things here? What's there to learn in this thread that I don't already know? The question #7 as stated is a potential trap, I said it first and others agreed. Am I missing something in the timeline of facts there? If so please correct me and I'll note the mistake
If you read Mr. Paintedpaws last reply you may learn how some others here would handle this question.... Just a thought?
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on May 2, 2014 10:51:44 GMT -5
Please allow me to pass along some other info that I believe is pertinent to this discussion. I feel that a good number of people do not understand a lot about the Adirondacks.This huge area of some six million acres encompassed within a boundry known as the blue line and generally known as the Adirondack Park. Within the park there is a patchwork of privately owned lands and some 2.6 million acres of state owned land. Over one hundred years ago the state constitution was amended to create the forest preserve, both in the Adirondacks and Catskills. It gave permanent protection to state owned lands from the hands of deveopers, logging, and the removal of Hemlock bark for use in hides tanning. Over the years unit management plans have been established as to the uses and prohibitions of various areas within the park. There are several land classifications with "Wilderness" being the most restrictive and "Wild Forest" being the least restrictive. The Siamese Ponds Wilderness area is one example, the Silver Lake wilderness is another. The Wilderness classification makes up the largest portion of the classifications with well over one million acres. More and more acres are being added to the forest preserve, particularly with the large paper companies divesting themselves of their vast holdings.Tremendous pressures from the Environmental groups have caused the Adirondack Park Agency and Governor to classify the bulk of these recently acquired lands as Wilderness. The Wilderness classification is very restrictive. No motors of any kind are allowed. No chainsaws,no snowmobiles, no atvs, and no floatplanes that previously provided access to sportsmen. Things are so restrictive that one not camp any closer than 150' from the shore of a stream or lake. Access is only available by foot or horses. Existing infa structure such as roads have been closed and buildings burned to the ground. A number of years ago I was involved with the dispute over closing the Crane Pond Road, and Adirondackers even held a mass parade down the Northway to Albany to protest state policies. DEC has been charged with managing these lands and they do a poor job at best. We only have to look at the towns of Inlet and Indian Lake maintaing the roads in the Moose River Plains because DEC can't or will not do so. Public campgrounds have been closed, and timber from blow downs can not be salvaged. Consequently we now have an over mature forest with little to no understory and an area increasingly unsuitable for species such as deer and fisher and others. I hope this paints a better picture.
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Post by camohoyt340 on May 2, 2014 14:54:05 GMT -5
I received another letter from Cornell today expressing the importance of this survey.
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wcs
Posts: 1,159
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Post by wcs on May 2, 2014 15:10:57 GMT -5
Please allow me to pass along some other info that I believe is pertinent to this discussion. I feel that a good number of people do not understand a lot about the Adirondacks.This huge area of some six million acres encompassed within a boundry known as the blue line and generally known as the Adirondack Park. Within the park there is a patchwork of privately owned lands and some 2.6 million acres of state owned land. Over one hundred years ago the state constitution was amended to create the forest preserve, both in the Adirondacks and Catskills. It gave permanent protection to state owned lands from the hands of deveopers, logging, and the removal of Hemlock bark for use in hides tanning. Over the years unit management plans have been established as to the uses and prohibitions of various areas within the park. There are several land classifications with "Wilderness" being the most restrictive and "Wild Forest" being the least restrictive. The Siamese Ponds Wilderness area is one example, the Silver Lake wilderness is another. The Wilderness classification makes up the largest portion of the classifications with well over one million acres. More and more acres are being added to the forest preserve, particularly with the large paper companies divesting themselves of their vast holdings.Tremendous pressures from the Environmental groups have caused the Adirondack Park Agency and Governor to classify the bulk of these recently acquired lands as Wilderness. The Wilderness classification is very restrictive. No motors of any kind are allowed. No chainsaws,no snowmobiles, no atvs, and no floatplanes that previously provided access to sportsmen. Things are so restrictive that one not camp any closer than 150' from the shore of a stream or lake. Access is only available by foot or horses. Existing infa structure such as roads have been closed and buildings burned to the ground. A number of years ago I was involved with the dispute over closing the Crane Pond Road, and Adirondackers even held a mass parade down the Northway to Albany to protest state policies. DEC has been charged with managing these lands and they do a poor job at best. We only have to look at the towns of Inlet and Indian Lake maintaing the roads in the Moose River Plains because DEC can't or will not do so. Public campgrounds have been closed, and timber from blow downs can not be salvaged. Consequently we now have an over mature forest with little to no understory and an area increasingly unsuitable for species such as deer and fisher and others. I hope this paints a better picture. Thanks for your time to explain. I am sure it helped many understand things a bit better.
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Post by walleyed on May 2, 2014 15:50:19 GMT -5
I also received a Second Nagging Followup Letter from Cornell today prompting me to fill out the Trapper's Survey and return it as soon as possible. My Trapper's Survey still sits upon my desk un-completed, and has not yet sealed itself inside the Post Paid Envelope, nor Dropped itself into the mailbox. walleyed is Still trying to decide just what to do with this Conundrum. Pick Your Poison, I guess. Help Us with this Dilemma Father Rockwood, and Wizard Miller. walleyed
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Post by silverfox on May 4, 2014 7:52:18 GMT -5
ditto on the "hurry up" second letter!
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Post by broadhorizons on May 4, 2014 8:29:42 GMT -5
Not everyone gets one? I didn't this year.
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wcs
Posts: 1,159
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Post by wcs on May 4, 2014 17:09:12 GMT -5
Anyone write to their regional office with their concerns about this? I did and received this response the same day..........
"William, Thank you for sharing this with us. I will make sure that this message is conveyed at our next Furbearer Managment Team meeting. We appreciate the opinions of those of you in the field and will take this into consideration. Thanks again.
Kevin Clarke Wildlife Biologist NYSDEC Region 3 Headquarters 21 S. Putt Corners Rd. New Paltz, NY 12561-1620 845-256-3088
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Post by chappy on May 5, 2014 6:04:03 GMT -5
The Cornell Survey is a joke. The JTI committee represents more knowledable trappers then the survey. Regional Directors should be bringing the opinions of trappers to the NYSTA meetings, where they are passed to JTI, I've seen this at work. Some in DEC know what has to be done with habitat management that would greatly effect wildlife populations. Problem being is that their hands are tied. They are being forced to make regulatory changes, as the only option available to them. The political landscape has become more important then the landscape we all live in. DEC is aware of the ever expanding fisher populations. From the Fisher presentation I intended DEC states that there is more fisher in New York then ever, inhabiting most of the state. Right now the do-nothing approach is the right course!!! If your not going to fix the problem then quit pretending too.....
The owning of large parcels of land by the government is completely contrary to the Constitution of United States!!!
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Post by papabear on May 5, 2014 8:32:56 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Painted, My sentiments echoed exactly! Leave the season alone and except the fact that the fisher have moved to areas with sustainable habitats! The APA, State, & DEP should come to grips with reality and assume responsibility for failing miserably to manage the Adirondack forests and its resources properly. For DEP to crack the whip of conservation at this point is a futile attempt to disguise the true issues and reasons for declining wildlife populations within the Adirondack " Forever Wild" Park. Regards
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wcs
Posts: 1,159
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Post by wcs on May 5, 2014 15:26:59 GMT -5
I received a second and more indepth response from the dec biologist staff. At least I know someone reads and takes the time to respond......see below
" First, a little background on the trapper mail survey. DEC conducts this survey annually with the help of Cornell University. Each year, a random sample of 4500 trapper receives the survey. Several follow up letters called urges are mailed to recipients to ensure we receive a high rate or return. Generally, our return rate on this survey exceeds 50% making it a very strong survey in statistical terms. Each year on this survey, we ask multiple questions that allow us to estimate furbearer harvests and trapper participation. We also include "special" questions each year to provide the Department with information it needs to inform management. Question 7 on this year's survey is an example of one of those "special" questions. Since you did not receive a survey this year, I've provided the exact wording for question #7 below: 7. If a furbearer species is experiencing significant population declines, wildlife managers have various options to address the problem. Review the list below and rank the management options from "1" through "4", with "1" being the best option and "4" being the worst option, in your opinion. Do not use a number more than once. For example, two options cannot both be ranked "4". Temporarily close the season Establish a bag limit Reduce the season length Establish a permit quota (lottery) RANK 1 = 1st choice (most acceptable / my most preferred option) 2 = 2nd choice 3 = 3rd choice 4 = 4th choice (least acceptable / my least preferred option) As you can see, this is a generic question aimed at determining trapper preferences for various management options that the Department could utilize if one of the species we manage as furbearers was experiencing population declines. Because you put "fisher" in the subject line of your inquiry, I'll further inform you that the Department is working on a management plan for fisher at this time and a draft is expected to be released sometime later this year. Like all of our management plans, that draft will be available for a 30 day period at which time the public may provide comments on the details of the plan. Once finalized, any regulatory changes called for in the plan will also undergo a comment period of 45 days before any changes are adopted. As I'm sure you are aware, land management policies in both the Adirondack and Catskill Parks were set forth by laws enacted over 100 years ago. Changes to these policies require action by the NYS Legislature and are therefore beyond the control of the Department. Thank you again for your inquiry. Feel free to contact me directly if you have additional questions. Andy Andrew J. MacDuff Senior Wildlife Biologist NYSDEC - Bureau of Wildlife
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Post by newfox1 on May 5, 2014 19:08:53 GMT -5
odd,he seems like a biologist who is trying to collect data so he can better do his job.he is not a lawmaker therefore he cannot change forrest management practices.he's "doing the best job he can with the tools and materials available to him" lets provide his department the most accurate data that we can.or we could refuse to participate and then complain about the outcome.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on May 5, 2014 20:01:23 GMT -5
Please let me assure you that Andy MacDuff is a dedicated biologist and he also is a trapper. He truly is a gentleman. I have the highest respect for Andy even though we often knock heads and disagree. I am glad that he is Co Chair of the FMT. There were biologists in the past for whom I had no respect, many are now retired, however I believe the present make-up of the team are truly dedicated biologists. The truth is that these men have been dealt a stacked deck. They have few options to consider and they have to balance politics from above along with decisions based upon scientific facts. As a former DEC employee I can;t begin to state the politics at the whim of the governor, down through the commissioner, and on down. I' ve run my mouth far more than I should have about this fisher matter. I am very opinionated about this issue and am in disagreement on some points.However I have the utmost respect for Andy MacDuff and his integrity.
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Post by papabear on May 6, 2014 6:12:10 GMT -5
Dear Mr Newfox 1, I'm not just merely complaining....I'm in full out B1TCH mode!!!! Again because some folks lack common sense enough to figure out, or except the true cause of the issue, we trappers, as a whole, get to live with the consequence. It's just easier to bully and regulate us trappers out of existence than to stand up to the political factions who are ignorant to forest and wildlife management. I have no personal beef with anyone at the DEP and am confident most there do what's necessary to justify their job! Regards
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Post by newfox1 on May 6, 2014 6:51:15 GMT -5
I am by no means overjoyed with the situation but it is what it is,if an animal is espescially difficult to catch we as trappers adjust our sets accordingly to outsmart them.I think we should acess the situation and act accordingly based on the things that we do have some control over.JMO
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Post by papabear on May 6, 2014 7:46:13 GMT -5
I am by no means overjoyed with the situation but it is what it is,if an animal is espescially difficult to catch we as trappers adjust our sets accordingly to outsmart them.I think we should acess the situation and act accordingly based on the things that we do have some control over.JMO Dear Mr. Newfox1, Please, by all means, explain to me what we trappers have control over in this situation? The fact is that the DEP is asking a small group of us trappers ,via the Cornell Survey, to select which stick we prefer they beat the whole group of us with! Regards
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