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Post by Lonny Mattison on Apr 28, 2014 8:46:23 GMT -5
Ifor one will trust John and NYSTA stance on this very delicate situation. I truly believe a bag limit will only set us up for more restrictions to come and a waste of fur harvested. It certainly WILL NOT stop outlaws from going over a limit.
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Post by saquelie on Apr 28, 2014 18:04:20 GMT -5
In my thirty four years of buying a nys trapping license, I have never been sent a survey regarding trapping from the state.I wonder how many other trappers are left out.
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Post by jdpaint on Apr 29, 2014 0:12:20 GMT -5
The last Traplines that came out it said the DEC had conducted another winter fisher population density study and the results were supposed to help with expanded opportunities in some areas. They were hoping the results would be ready by the Directors Meeting.Anyone know what the results were and are you sure ole #7 is for fisher?
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austinp
#3 Newhouse
the next fur season is never far from our minds :)
Posts: 3,008
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Post by austinp on Apr 29, 2014 5:36:29 GMT -5
I have the utmost respect for all biologists and all econ officers out there. In my experience they are all real good people just like us and in most cases sympathetic to us. Nor do I fault anyone for measures taken to preserve their job which in today's modern time is a very precious thing to have. But whoever dictates policy to manage wildlife, wherever such "political pressure" comes from needs to be told straight-up and matter of fact how it is.
If there is a perceived population problem with fisher or any other species, the core problem is habitat degradation. By mismanaging said habitat, the powers that be have already made their management decision. If indeed the ability to manage habitat is outside of the decision-maker's control, then they need to pressure the people whose control that management power is actually in.
And most importantly, when we the people are steered towards such pigeon-hole terms as this thread discusses, we need to step out of that box entirely. There is no good answer to question #7 offered us on this survey. They all suck, they are all ineffective and all detrimental to trapping. The only real answer is to fix the problem, and the problem is habitat loss. So that is the only suitable answer for reply. The whole genre' of compliance and settlement in this country needs to end. NYS should have oodles of fisher in the core areas as it did historically. If they are no longer present, why not? Attack that problem head on, and fix it. There's the singular mantra for "powers that be" to hear, no matter how many political levels up it must be shouted thru.
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Post by snowrd on Apr 29, 2014 8:07:15 GMT -5
Thank you Austin. Most often it is not the problem, but the way "we" go about fixing it.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 29, 2014 8:30:28 GMT -5
I wish every trapper in the state could be reading this thread. Let me add some more thoughts.I have been trapping the Central and South Eastern Adirondacks for over 45 years. I go back to when Gary Parsons was a biologist in Warrensburgh controlling fisher regs. First off I am not a biologist, but I have plenty of field experience. I open the stomache of every fisher I catch. The black tails, mink and fisher, are my passion. I am of the opinion that fisher can be over trapped and that they do not bounce back quickly, reproductive wise. Many on the JTI and in NYSTA do not share my opinion, but I have to be honest about how I feel. Also I must say that I have not seen one shred of biological information to back up my opinion. In just my years of trapping and hunting the Adirondacks I have seen changes, not for the good.The old clearings are gone, all grown back up. The forest itself is over mature.Wildlife is changing, understory is receeding, and I could go on and on. Who ever termed the expression,"Forever Wild, Forever Dead" is oh so true. The idea that fisher were a reclusive animal of the deep dark forest has proven not to be true.Fisher have moved out of the core Adirondacks and now are in the periphery and farm lands where the food is. They have greatly expanded their range throughout central and western New York. Without question the most serious reason for the lower fisher catch in the Adirondacks is the decline in habitat, food availability, more and more reduction of access, and out of season illegal trapping. The very department (DEC) that faces the challange of this situation is the department that is contributing to it. Over and Over the department classifies newly acquired former paper company forest lands and classifies most of them as wilderness, bowing politically to the desires of the all too powerful environmental groups. DEC can not and does not properly manage these lands, case in point, Moose River Plains. I for one am thankful that these lands are not going into developers hands, but the lack of regulated foresty and other sound management practices is a disgrace. One piece of truth said to me by my friend "Frenchie" is that if you give something up you will never get it back. How true. It is a real concern to me that DEC refuses to have sunset clauses or guarantees of future reopening when they close or shorten the season. Two of the present options are just that; close or shorten the season. We certainly do not want to see a repeat of the disgraceful and unwarrented closure of the otter season in the Mohawk Valley and portions of the Catskills. How long has it been? Somewhere between 14 to 16 years. Most of the biologists of that time are now retired, promises not fulfilled, and DEC has no better handle on it than when they closed it. Disgraceful!!!!! We can not allow that to happen to the fisher. DEC also refuses to institute accidental catch regulations. As much as I like these biologists and understand the position they are in, they do have a bad case of tunnel vision, case in point the refusal to start northern zone seasons later than what they are. They continually point to the DEC/Corrnell survey with it's flawed facts and misleading questions as the basis of their decisions. I say Horse Turds to that!
We can not allow quotas either.As John pointed out one thing leads to another, what would be next? On a different note DEC did present facts and figures of their trail cameras studies in central and western New York. They are also gathering hair samples and using track boards. The hair samples are for DNA testing. I don't have all of those results, but occupancy rates were significant, and it appears that DEC will open some sort of season in those areas. Let us hope that it will be at a time unlike the bobcats, when the pelts would be valuable.
Al
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Post by newfox1 on Apr 29, 2014 11:26:47 GMT -5
what are some thoughts on the ever expanding coyote population as one of the contributing factors.not many people extensively trapping coyote in the big woods, what would last a couple fisher a few weeks coyotes could eat in a night.
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Post by uncledoug on Apr 29, 2014 16:59:33 GMT -5
What can we (those who didn't get a survey) do to oppose any of the 4 changes on the survey and express our opinion on the issue of habitat?
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Post by papabear on Apr 29, 2014 20:59:35 GMT -5
Dear Friends, I certainly appreciate the excellent information and responces from Mr. Walleyed, Mr. Paintedpaw and Mr. Rockwood! However I strongly oppose all the options to this loaded question #7.......in my opinion the areas " experiencing significant population declines" DEC could impose a year round season with no limit on fisher and not cause any harm. WHY.......the fisher are no longer there because THE CURRENT HABITAT DOES NOT SUSTAIN A POPULATION!!!!!!!!...........if seasons are " temporarily closed" in these areas they will never be re-opened, WHY.......BECAUSE THE FUTURE HABITAT WILL NEVER SUSTAIN A POPULATION unless the forests are managed or a natural catastrophe changes them!!!!!!! I also don't believe completely that the fisher population is declining, it is my belief that fisher are migrating from "traditional" forest habitat to areas that have sufficient prey species and foods to sustain them. Look for the food sources and you'll find the fisher.....Regards
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Post by mole on Apr 30, 2014 3:11:11 GMT -5
Papa Bear is exactly right. The fisher, cyote, bobcat are not in the Big Woods. There is nothing for them to eat. I live in the Big Woods , I can show you Thousands of acres of trackless snow. The predators are migrating. to the low lands in search of food. I live on the edge of a big tag alder swamp, when I first moved here it would packed down with rabbit tracks, last winter maybe half a dozen tracks. What happened to them?
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Post by trappermac on Apr 30, 2014 4:29:10 GMT -5
I agree with Papabear and Mole, and Austin said the same thing earlier. There is no correct answer to this question. You're being asked to pick the best of all incorrect answers so that the decision becomes "this is what trappers asked for". If the state sent you a survey and asked how much do you want your taxes to increase by next year...$2000, $1500, or $1000......would you pick $1000 because that is the best answer available? Answering that question with the available answers is drinking the koolaid.....ants marching. IMHO.
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Post by rufus on Apr 30, 2014 5:18:42 GMT -5
Many of you have hit the nail on the head with state land. I call it sterile land. The only management done on it in my area is to mow what fields are present in late august so there is absolutely no cover going into the winter. The woods is so mature that almost no browse is available and this is on land that is not forever wild. DEC used to do firewood cuts and timber sales. But I haven't heard of that in this region in years. As we all know its all easier to regulate people thru laws than habitat, although habitat will respond better to good management.
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Post by psb1011 on Apr 30, 2014 7:21:35 GMT -5
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Post by silverfox on Apr 30, 2014 8:08:33 GMT -5
as an example to support what papabear and others are trying to convey, i reside on the western edge of the adirondacks (predominately AG land) between the adirondacks and tug hill, and i can say with certainty there is not a population decrease in fisher, as is evident by our regular sightings, and plethora of fisher sign throughout the area easily identified during winter months (my wife even tried "calling" one that was in our yard thinking it was a stray cat wondering around)they have done what animal populations do, that is adapt to changing habitat and move to the food sources (my buddy close by sets 6 cubby sets on his 30 acres each season and always catches 6-8 fisher year after year in these same sets) it appears the trapping community is in tune with the real issue, now if we can get the "powers that be" on the same page, then maybe the real issues can be addressed instead of an ineffective knee jerk reaction (the 4 choices on the survey) to what is really taking place, with the real threat of irreversible legislature that is detrimental to the trapping community
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Post by papabear on Apr 30, 2014 10:05:25 GMT -5
Dear Friends, several months ago DEC sent out a fisher survey. The survey requested the trapper to mark locations of their fisher catches on the enclosed map. Although I was reluctant at first, I filled it out and when it was completed I could visibly see a definite pattern in my catches from several years ago to this past season. A concentrated southward shift to habitat that had feed and cover! It is evident that the fisher in my area are moving out of the central Adirondacks to the foothills and periphery. Fisher catches from my old lines dwindled to nearly nothing but I'm now catching most of them in the southern foothills to the Mohawk Valley in farming country woodlots...............I think it would be useful if some of the biologists got together with some of us trappers so we could discuss and even show them what is actually going on. I personally invite any DEC biologists that want to be enlightened to spend a day going over some of my lines and see first hand the declination and non sustainability of traditional fisher habitats to the migration and adaptation to non traditional but sustainable habitats.....Regards
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Post by trappermac on Apr 30, 2014 10:06:37 GMT -5
LOL.....nice Phil, wow, we are truly in trouble.
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paintedpaw
Retired NYSDEC Lake George Ranger
Posts: 691
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Post by paintedpaw on Apr 30, 2014 10:12:46 GMT -5
First let me answer uncledoug. I think trappers should contact the wildlife biologist in their regional office to voice their opinion. There have been some very good comments on this thread, some that have affected my thinking. Mr.PapaBear in particular raises some very valid points.Mr.Mole also. The fact remains that in the Adirondacks hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of acres of state owned forestlands are NOT being properly managed. The state constitution mandates "Forever Wild" which ties a lot of hands, however the acquisition of more and more former Finch-Pruyn lands and others and classification of these lands as Wilderness does not have to be. The environmental groups have far too much political power and dictate the choices of the much hated Adirondack Park Agency, DEC higher ups, and the Governor himself. Consequently DEC does a poor job at best of managing these lands and more and more people are shut out of enjoying them.Where floatplanes used to provide access to the public, even most of that has been shut down. Stupidity prevails.Existing infra structure is closed or burned down.Logging ceases even to the point that lumber that is blown down can not be salvaged and DEC foresters can not properly maintain these woodlands.Just think how much revenue the state could generate if strictly controlled logging were allowed and new growth could take place. I certainly am not advoicating raping the lands, but am advocating wise use of our renewable resources. My family lives in Warren and Essex Counties. My wife owns lands within sight of Gore Mountain in the Town of Johnsburg. It is my belief that a long term goal exists to drive the residents out of the Adirondacks and turn them into a National Park. I think this has been going on dating back to the Rockefeller administration. I see the state putting a financial squeeze upon the school districts forcing them to take drastic measures and consolidation. There never is enough money for the schools, but somehow there always is enough money to acquire more and more land. There is no work and our children are forced to move out. We get a lot of lip servicefrom the state and continual bombardment from the Governor with every press release. With all of this, what do you think those DEC biologists are going to do to protect their jobs?
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Post by psb1011 on Apr 30, 2014 11:22:46 GMT -5
In case some of you missed it,the study "eating chicken on the bone makes kids more aggressive" was done by Cornell university,the same people doing your survey.
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Post by 2labs on Apr 30, 2014 13:03:17 GMT -5
When I answered my survey and came to question 7 I filed it!!
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Post by brushwolf64 on Apr 30, 2014 15:26:02 GMT -5
I think the biologists know the problem but there hands are tied politically and economically.As many of you have mentioned already no food......no fisher. If I remember correctly the state would have to ratify the forever wild designation to allow habitat management on those lands. Its a shame but I doubt that would ever happen in this state.Only time and/or a natural disaster will revert the land back to a more fertile environment.
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Post by saquelie on Apr 30, 2014 15:28:56 GMT -5
Said it before, we can only hope mother nature will help manage our forests here with a good old burn. Then and only then will you see the forest here rebound with the help of new growth. Don't hold your breath waiting for the state to fix any problems that don't concern downstate.
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Post by richg072 on Apr 30, 2014 18:54:50 GMT -5
Its funny how the DEC has all the information for landowners about forest stewardship which includes logging and how important it is to prevent an even aged forest, yet don't practice it them selves. To be honest this is the first I've heard that they created "for ever wild areas" in the Adirondack's. They log the hell out of the state land in my area. Unfortunately its a monoculture so nothing but spruce seedlings sprout by the millions, furthering the land basically a desert.
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Post by papabear on Apr 30, 2014 19:22:04 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Paintedpaw, The A.P.A. has turned the D.E.C. into the D.E.P......department of environmental preservation. Regards
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redneck315ers
i got the trapping bug and i see u dont have to lay steel to get it
Posts: 1,099
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Post by redneck315ers on Apr 30, 2014 21:21:18 GMT -5
Well said
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Post by psb1011 on May 1, 2014 8:10:26 GMT -5
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