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Post by kkbait on Feb 15, 2006 14:23:51 GMT -5
Looking to get some traps for fox,fisher and the occasional coyote. Do you thing the Bridger 1.65 would be a good choice and if so any mods to it. Thanks kkbait
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Post by Itrapny on Feb 15, 2006 14:40:35 GMT -5
I haven't used them but I use #1 3/4 Northwoods and #1 1/2 Monty's with no problems with only triple swivels as a mod. I've only had 1 'yote pullout that I can remember. I bought a few for my son for Christmas so I certainly think they are worth the money, go for it!!
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Post by TI trapper on Feb 15, 2006 15:20:11 GMT -5
All of my k9 traps are #1 3/4 coilsprings. from victor or Scm with three swivels as the only mod also.I wouldn't be afraid to use a bridger 1.65 if thats what was in my basket.
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Post by mikespring on Feb 15, 2006 15:28:47 GMT -5
A few weeks ago Wayne you had mentioned "a couple of coyote pullouts right in front of your eyes"...
Now correct me if I am wrong but you also had posted on your coyote take for the year I believe you said 9. Is this # including your pullouts? If not then you caught 11 and held 9. That catch to hold ratio by my standards would be unsatisfactory. I only bring this up on account you seem not to be a proponent of modifying your equipment .
KKbait, I have experience with the 1.65 bridgers the offsets, they have been base plated #9 wire laminations and 4 coiled and 3 mb swivels in the chain set up ( no longer than 12"). This set up makes a decent fox and coyote trap. I cant comment on this set up for fisher since we have none in this part of the state ;D
Mike Spring
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Post by Itrapny on Feb 15, 2006 15:42:53 GMT -5
The 2 pullouts I had this year were the first I have experienced, and I have very few sprung traps. One was in a #1 1/2 Monty and the other was in a #2 Bridger. In years past I have held all my 'yotes in #1 3/4 Northwoods and #2 Monty's. I bought some #2 Bridger's this past year just to try them out. They held fine except for that one. I only get about 10 days to trap so I guess 9 'yotes with 2 pullouts from about 2 dozen traps isn't too bad. I also picked up 4 reds & 3 grays and a couple of 'coon as well. I really like the #2 Monty RJ's and the 450 Helfrich's is you can find them.
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Post by kkbait on Feb 15, 2006 15:50:55 GMT -5
regular or offset jaws??? thanks for all the replies
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Post by mikespring on Feb 15, 2006 16:20:19 GMT -5
Wayne, did the yotes leave anything for you in the trap? Were they offsets? 4 coiled?
9 coyotes on a 10 day check with 24 traps is great, 11 is better. I know 100% hold ratio is`nt gonna happen with coyotes but would think we should try and obtain the highest catch to hold ratio possible and I believe modifications help with this.
Mike Spring
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Post by Itrapny on Feb 15, 2006 17:50:09 GMT -5
Mike, Just stock traps with the addition of swivels. Nothing in the traps but air, not even a stray hair . The Bridger was brand new and the Monty had new music wire springs so I know they were worn out.
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Post by Rick on Feb 15, 2006 18:07:44 GMT -5
The #1 1/2 monty round jaw is one tenacious, well-built trap, and I've held a fair amount of coyotes in 'em myself.
But it's not a coyote trap.
Rick.
Sorry KK, I know that had nothing to do with your question. I think the 1.65 Bridger or 1.75 Northwoods Round Jaw (same trap near as I can tell), is a decent tweener trap. It's a pretty good fox trap and it'll hold it's share of coyotes.
Like was said before though....take no chances in coyote country. Mine are all baseplated, three crunch-proof swivels, and #3 machine link chain. My chain rigs total 8". Unless you find yourself needing them to bust up through a frozen crust often, I've found #2 music wire springs will power 'em up plenty.
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Post by Dave Leibig on Feb 15, 2006 20:37:31 GMT -5
For me after seeing Coyotes puling out in front of me. Totally unacceptable, I have base plated, laminated, 4-coiled, and I like a short chain with more swivels than chain. This year I have a 100% catch ratio. For me the proof is in the modifications. It helps that I can do all of my own welding. For the last 2 years Jim S. and his partner Ed held a boil down at Ed's place. I must of welded 6-8 doz. traps for everyone. I had a blast. Jim doesn't Skin but is a Boiling Fool. ;D Dave PS The Bridger 1.65 modified will hold any coyote.
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Post by mikespring on Feb 15, 2006 20:46:01 GMT -5
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "For me after seeing Coyotes puling out in front of me. Totally unacceptable, I have base plated, laminated, 4-coiled, and I like a short chain with more swivels than chain. This year I have a 100% catch ratio. For me the proof is in the modifications"(Dave Leibig).
AMEN!!!
Mike Spring
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Post by kkbait on Feb 16, 2006 10:52:56 GMT -5
Thanks for all the input kkbait
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2006 12:27:13 GMT -5
I don't currently own any, but I think that the 1.65 Bridger is a good in between trap also, and agree with Mike and Rick on the modifications to them. My personal current favorite in between trap right now ,is a # 1 3/4 Sleepy Creek OS jaws stock, except for extra swivel, shockspring, and PIT dog replacement (with the stock square pan). I would if I could, also like to add a couple comments to the discussion of modifications to traps, and I'm not slaming anyone's preferences or opinion. I do the modifications now because of coyotes, and years ago I did it because of possible paw damage to incidental dog catches in the more settled areas I trap. The only trap I had a coyote blow up, was an old #1 1/2 Victor square pinch pan set for fox twenty years ago. That same day I also released a large female coyote across the street from that set, held in another #1 1/2 Victor set for coon. This doesn't prove much, except that coyotes can sometimes, maybe often, be held in marginal equipment. The idea of modifications to traps and fastening methods, to improve holding ability and cut down on paw damage to the catch and incidentals is important now more than ever. We have better traps now more than ever at anytime in the past, and the old standards don't apply anymore. The new #1 1/2 Montana's, are better than the old #1 1/2 Montgomeries, and neither, as was mentioned,are coyote traps. I wish we could use # 3 Montana's here. As any # 1 3/4 or #2 size traps with a 5 1/2" or so jaw spread, is a marginal coyote trap, when talking percentages and catch to miss ratios, even on short partime traplines. If you want to talk cast jaw traps. The MJ-500 Sterlings and # 22 Coyote Cuffs are better than the old 450 Helfriches, and readily available. The Helfrichs were very expensive traps in their day and it amazes me that trappers who say they wish they were still around will say the Sterlings and Cuffs are overpriced. You could buy nearly 1/2 dozen #1 3/4 Victors for the price of one 450 Helfrich when they first came out. I know because I bought my first 1/2 dozen #1 3/4 Victors for less than $20 from the now defunct Sandstone Fur Co. in Ohio , when they first came out. I still have some of them and modified them as I coudn't afford the Helfrich's, and hated the #2 square jaw Victors I had to use on canines at that time. Same hold true today. You can buy about three Bridgers to one of these fancy traps today , but you won't have to do anything to the Sterlings or Cuffs, except dye and wax them . If you have theft issues with the resultant trap loss , you can as Dave mentioned , learn how to weld ,or have someone who can modify your standard stuff into better stuff. It really is worth it. in my opinion, and all these experiments with trap modification and the discussion, have brought traps and trapping, out of the stoneage. Their use on the coyote problem may just save trapping for other animals with the other kinds foothold traps.
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Post by fingerlakesfur on Feb 16, 2006 13:16:09 GMT -5
Bobber, The Montana #3 is a NYS Legal trap. Falls 1/8# under limit.
I bought two dozen to try out this year.
Pullouts: Experienced more this year than I care to share. I had to do an equipment/method evaluation about mid season. I credit most of it to my evolution as a flat set trapper opposed to the step down/trench type dirt hole I used predominatley in years past.
All pullouts occured in flat sets. My choice of trap was a #2 Montgmery square jaw baseplated w/shock spring, regular jaws and new music wire springs. Evidence showed they were toe caught.
I believe a bigger trap at flat sets is an advantage. The traditional step down set is rarely a problem due to the animals commitment when stepping. The Montana's, Jakes, #3 Bridgers w/inside lams are going to see more use on my line.
One trap that continues to surprise me is the #1 3/4 Duke regular jaw. This trap has held many toe caught yotes for me and in my opinion, the best red fox trap on the market. Check the coyote BMP's, this trap passed all the tests.
Dale
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Post by mikespring on Feb 16, 2006 15:26:17 GMT -5
Bobber I agree there have been many a coyote taken in marginal equipment.
to get back to KK baits question on the 1.65stock bridger as a coyote trap, yea you will hold coyotes and you will definitley lose a few too, modify it and you will hold alot more.
Dale what evidence, pm me if its to graphic to discuss here.
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Post by fingerlakesfur on Feb 16, 2006 15:42:51 GMT -5
Mike, I found empty traps with the short hairs from coycote toes with a noticeable catch circle.
Sometimes there were no hairs, but the stuggle indicates coyote.
I have also held alot of toe catches in the Montgomery's, just more pullouts than with my other equipment.
Dale
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Post by kkbait on Feb 16, 2006 15:48:29 GMT -5
I am looking for a trap mainly for fox and fisher and the occasional coyote not as a main coyote trap.
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Post by mikespring on Feb 16, 2006 15:55:03 GMT -5
I do understand that KKbait.... and my advice still stands.
Mike Spring
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2006 10:05:30 GMT -5
Dale, I' m glad you mentioned the Montana's being legal, as I was sure they weren't here. I thought the #3 montana's had a 5 7/8" inside jaw spread, at least that was what I was told over the phone by a supplier I buy from when I last asked. I agree that in trench sets you get by with alot of smaller traps as guiding the paw is assured. Your comments on the Duke #1 3/4 and toe catches suprise me as I have gone to the off-sets and laminations because of cutting with regular jaws. The Dukes and the Victors they are cloned from ,both have thin sharp jaws. I posted a paw photo on here last fall that shows paw cuts are almost assured with thin jawed #1 3/4 traps and fox caught in coyote sets. The off-sets main advantage to me, has been in holding toe catches. Also, I've noticed that the major cause of toe catches and snapped traps for me, is do to a hair trigger or nite-latched dog/pan. The trap fires before the animal is solidly commited. Some guys want a trap to fire even if it's just touched by the paw. Reminds me of some hunters that walk around with the hammer of their gun pulled all the way back, or the safety off, because they want to be quicker to get off the shot if game appears. The nite-latch doesn't matter with stepdowns ala Legget, Carman style, but it does with dancers ,crawlers and flat sets. In snow and freeze thaw crust it's even worse. Larger traps are better then, and Paws-Trip pans have eliminated the snapped traps and most toe catches for me. Kkbait you might want to look for some used Victor #1 1/2 soft-catches as an all around trap. They actually have a slightly bigger jaw spread than the 1.65 Bridgers. Put #2 music wire springs on them , bend down the spring pin ends,and install a PIT pan system and they will do fine. They are really too small for coyotes but there will be no damage to incidentals and they will hold any coyotes that fire them. They are one of the best fox, coon traps for the upland trapline in settled areas.
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Post by fingerlakesfur on Feb 17, 2006 13:51:36 GMT -5
Bobber, At summer Rondy & NYSTA Convention I was told they were legal. So I bought some offset & they measure 5 5/8 # inside. So is J.C. Conner's Jake trap. Bridger #3 however needs inside lams to be legal.
As far as the Duke's. The jaws are definately thicker than the Victor 1.75, plus they have rolled edges as opposed to the sheared edges of Victors.
Baseplated & center swiveled I have no paw damage what-so-ever. I think the key is center swiveling. I see paw cutting in the offset model. Jaws should be extracted & filed smooth. The holding power of these traps is surprising.
Dale
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Post by bballou on Feb 17, 2006 20:32:49 GMT -5
Lots of info. flying around here, some good -------some bad ( in my opinion) One thing I have noticed when opinions were offered about missing coyotes,NOT one trapper said anything about gitting the coyotes foot in the center of the trap.Seams logical if the foot was in the center of the trap when the trap fired the trapper would get a better higher catch. Not toes ----sides of feet-- etc.etc. (less loss) When I took lessons centering the foot was one of the first things covered. I have not seen this covered in many years. What I am babbling about is cutting your pans down and I mean way down. Try this put together something about the size of a coyotse foot or use a coyotes paw ,,, Put the object on the jaw and pan and spring the trap-----I REST MY CASE What say yea Jim S. ? Sorry KK I dont own a 1.65
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Post by jsevering on Feb 17, 2006 21:33:43 GMT -5
bill, thats old school.......... now we use screens to increase the kill area, offset traps to protect the fragile toe bones and wire levers so the worries of flat metal levers and toe jams, dont effect lever lockup and small bone breakage........... all kiding aside with the smaller traps your working with a two third kill zone and one third of that on a semi circle is gonna give you toe catches the other whole third on dog side is gonna leave you alot of air and time consuming remakes when you should be putting in new sets, not remaking old........jim
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Post by mikespring on Feb 17, 2006 21:50:44 GMT -5
Outstanding post Jim.
Mike Spring
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Post by bballou on Feb 18, 2006 8:42:57 GMT -5
God bless ya Jim . Old school my foot. ( Sereens AND Kill Area) Your math is goofed up. Must be one of your teachers had you by the throat trying to stop the bleeding from teaspoon wounds the day the math teacher taught surface reduction and increasing air space from the center to the edge.LOL
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Post by jsevering on Feb 18, 2006 9:44:49 GMT -5
its hard to get a handle on things when your reduced to standing in the corner of the fur shed with a rubber coated spoon and a plastic fur brush, but ed says some day, we aint gonna pay attention to that local law.........tells me not to worry even a brick has twelve edges....................
wish zagger would post some of his opinions, know he struggled through the small trap.....big trap ordeal and went through re-tooling and thinking, his outfit a few times......probably to busy bending woodpecker beaks with all those metal trees hes been planting around the state.............jim
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